Barn2 and Marky just had a fight

[Artos]

I was opening the front door and Barn2 slipped past my foot. He charged at Marky and there was a minor fight. Not a lot of growling as I feared there would be...and when I yelled at both of them and separated them, it was Barn2 who was a bit more difficult to disengage from his growliness. Marky seemed to be more relieved to be pulled off. Got my dad to hold Marky while I carried Barn back into the house (easier to carry him than to haul him). Then I checked them for wounds.

Barn seemed ok. Still raring to go. Bad boy.

Marky was walking on three legs. His hind left leg was in the air. Checked him for cuts. None. Realised that Barn2 must have hit his muscle- his vulnerable spot. Marky had a major operation there when I first took him in. The head of his femur bone was totally crushed by a big truck (hit and run) and the vet had tied all his muscles together around the remaining bones. He healed well because he was a pup when it happened. He walks and jumps well but if one observes carefully, he does walk with a very very slight limp.

My shortlegged furball must have hit his muscle quite hard.

After massaging his outer thigh for a while, I noticed that Marky could put his leg down but for only a while...then he would resume his three legged walk/runs.

The only sign of the canine tiff was a small tuff of fur on the floor. It looked like Barn's because it was more wool-y than Marky's straight short fur.

Feeling thoughts:
1. A bit relieved because I realised that the two are ok...more or less. I think Marky will be ok after a short rest.
2. A bit relieved that the two(who are both cowards) did not seem to have the strong will to fight each other in the same way that Trax would when he encountered Marky (and vice versa). Compared to all the growls they had made against each other across the door grills, this was very very mild.
But am concerned whether Barn2 would be emboldened to try again...and fight to be top dog. Am concerned that if Barn2 manages to get out when I am not around (my dad is less careful..) what would happen. Would Marky be likely to go all out to fight back?

Do advise. Thanks.

[Artos]

Dont quite understand canine body language. Marky has been seen coming to the door grills, wagging his stubby tail and rump and putting his paw onto the grills in a playmode type of action...as if inviting Barn2 to play. Barn will stiffen up instead. Not sure how to interpret the actions or how to respond.

Please give advice! Thanks....

[Jespah]

Artos, not knowing your dogs and being able to see them interact with all of the little signs, it's difficult to tell you how to proceed. I would imagine that Barn2 - being the inside dog has more to lose in the situation than Marky, so may be more of a threat to Marky. Marky sounds like he is inviting Barn2 to play, but I think that Barn may intpret it as an attempt to oust him from his position of favour. I would not let them have direct access to each other at home right now. Is there somewhere you could take them that would be neutral territory to perhaps get know each other?

Sorry I can't be of much help on this.

Deb

[taflar]

Feeling thoughts:
1. A bit relieved because I realised that the two are ok...more or less. I think Marky will be ok after a short rest.

Be sure to check for any swelling and possibly a puncture wound. Puncture wounds can be hard to find sometimes, as they can be small and covered by dog fur.

2. A bit relieved that the two (who are both cowards) did not seem to have the strong will to fight each other in the same way that Trax would when he encountered Marky (and vice versa). Compared to all the growls they had made against each other across the door grills, this was very very mild.
But am concerned whether Barn2 would be emboldened to try again...and fight to be top dog.

Yes, he probably will. However I don't think he's the alpha or top dog. He's a wanna be. True alpha's don't start fights, they are peacemakers. I posted an article I wrote on this. I think you should be able to find it without too much trouble.

Am concerned that if Barn2 manages to get out when I am not around (my dad is less careful..) what would happen. Would Marky be likely to go all out to fight back?

If Barn goes after him, yes, he is going to fight back.

Peggy

[glencorgi]

Feeling thoughts:
1. A bit relieved because I realised that the two are ok...more or less. I think Marky will be ok after a short rest.

Most likely, unless there is a puncture wound you missed (not hard to do, even when doing a good look over).

2. A bit relieved that the two(who are both cowards) did not seem to have the strong will to fight each other in the same way that Trax would when he encountered Marky (and vice versa). Compared to all the growls they had made against each other across the door grills, this was very very mild.

You are very lucky indeed, although I'm not sure I'd call them cowardly from the history you've shared. However, memories can be long and the next time (IF there is one) might not be so mild.

But am concerned whether Barn2 would be emboldened to try again...and fight to be top dog.

I think you can count on it, I'm afraid, at least that has been my experience and what others recount as well.



Rightly so to be concerned. It could be very nasty and you could have two very injured dogs.

[QUOTE=] Would Marky be likely to go all out to fight back?

I think he would do just that.

Do advise.

Only real advice I can give is to be extra diligent and keep them separated at all costs. With Trax gone, the strained dynamics of "peace" you had before are also now gone. This is an extremely tenuous heirarchy to consider bringing a third dog of any age into.

Debbie

[Artos]

Thanks. Really appreciate advice and thoughts.

The only 'peace' we had was between Trax and Barn2. Both corgis were not pro-Marky.

Hope getting a maid would help. The main purpose is for the maid to do what my dad can't...ie help me monitor the dogs. (and my dad who is liable to sneak extra food to the already fat dogs).
Hope I can train the dogs with the maid helping me (ie send her for classes)....

Barn is a house dog. He sleeps on our beds and steals our pillows. No way we are going to change that. We had wished to bring Marky in and let him be a house dog as well (just as Trax was...and allow him to sleep on the bed too...) But I think it might not be possible with the dynamics as it is.

Marky is an outside dog. He sits on our outside sofas when he is scared (kinda funny to see a huge GSD sized dog sitting on the human sofa and letting out loud WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!) When the backyard is done (Marky's usual abode. We are now renovating it to create a room for the maid)- Marky will be there on a permanent basis.

Checked the two. No swelling nor puncture wounds. Marky is running quite normally today. Occasionally he does it on three legs....Not sure if part of it is to get my sympathy...hee hee.

I think in the past week, the hierarchy is a bit clearer- ie I am alpha. The two will listen to me. I think they are feeling a bit more secure now. It is possible to get both dogs to stand very close together (with grill of gate separating them) and petting both of them with each of my hands (one hand through the grill to pet the outside dog) as I sit there. Once in a while one of them might growl at the other(and get a scolding or smack) but 70 per cent of the time, they seem to like the situation.

Photo of Marky on the outside sofa

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/corgyn/marky07a360x480.jpg


Photos taken about two and a half years ago when Barn2 was a pup. He was ok with Marky then....
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/corgyn/markybarn.jpg

[taflar]

Hope getting a maid would help. The main purpose is for the maid to do what my dad can't...ie help me monitor the dogs. (and my dad who is liable to sneak extra food to the already fat dogs). Hope I can train the dogs with the maid helping me (ie send her for classes)....

A maid would do that? Here I'm thinking they would be for housekeeping not dog managing.

Barn is a house dog. He sleeps on our beds and steals our pillows. No way we are going to change that. We had wished to bring Marky in and let him be a house dog as well (just as Trax was...and allow him to sleep on the bed too...) But I think it might not be possible with the dynamics as it is.

Only if you can keep them seperated.

I think in the past week, the hierarchy is a bit clearer- ie I am alpha. The two will listen to me. I think they are feeling a bit more secure now. It is possible to get both dogs to stand very close together (with grill of gate separating them) and petting both of them with each of my hands (one hand through the grill to pet the outside dog) as I sit there. Once in a while one of them might growl at the other(and get a scolding or smack) but 70 per cent of the time, they seem to like the situation.

I'd still not let them together, and I agree with Debbie, a tenuous situation to consider bringing another dog into. Barn fights with Marky, he fought with Trax. I'd assume he doesn't like other dogs.

Peggy

[Artos]

Thanks. Barn's fights with Trax were not that serious ie they would make up after that and Barn would groom Trax and vice versa....and then play. With Marky- its slightly different.

Will keep Marky as a backyard dog.

Yes- maids here do everything...take care of old folks (including doing the injections, bathing those who are unable to do so themselves etc), kids (take them to and from school/see that they study, etc), wash cars, cook, do housework, take care of dogs and cats(one friend of mine has 2 maids and about 30 cats/10 dogs. She's into animal rescue...) - etc.

The key is to find someone who LOVES dogs and who can take care of old folks. Most are into taking care of kids plus cooking and housework.

Just finished renovation of the backyard- the maid's room is ready. Quite nice too! Now I have to look for a maid. Hope I will find a good one who loves dogs....

[glencorgi]

Guess I'll be dreaming on. :LAUGH:

Seriously though, right now the two dogs you have are enough to handle, even with another pair of hands. *I* would not place a third into those dynamics, far too many risks.

Debbie

[Jespah]

I agree with Glencorgi Artos. I think until Marky and Barn2 are sorted out and it's safe, bringing in a 3rd dog right now may be very dangerous.

Deb

[Artos]

A very experienced German Shepherd Dog Club trainer viewed the two dogs recently. From his observation of their encounters, he said that it wasnt that serious a problem as I had thought. Both are 'soft' dogs. While it isnt likely that Marky and Barn2 can live inside the house together - the two can be taught to coexist with one another and with other dogs.

Well, hopefully we can do some training...when I get a maid....

[taflar]

A very experienced German Shepherd Dog Club trainer viewed the two dogs recently. From his observation of their encounters, he said that it wasnt that serious a problem as I had thought. Both are 'soft' dogs. While it isnt likely that Marky and Barn2 can live inside the house together - the two can be taught to coexist with one another and with other dogs.

Well, hopefully we can do some training...when I get a maid....

But Barn is NOT a German Shepherd. And Markey doesn't look like a purebred GSD to me. So IMO, someone who is not experienced with corgis is not in a position to tell you that this "not that serious" and they can be trained to coexist with other dogs.

You have people on this forum, me for one, with experience with corgis who do not get along with other dogs. And let me tell you some of them just aren't good with other dogs. Some are ok with a few dogs but won't accept others. Some are ok with dogs they already know but won't accept new ones.

Barn has started fights with Trax and with Markey. IMO, he is not a candidate for adding a new dog to this home. I'm another who would not place a dog in your home.

Sorry to be blunt, but IMO, maid or not this is a situation that needs to be recognized for what it is. IMO, the fighting is not going to stop. And IMO, you are asking a lot of a maid to come in and referee your dogs and take care of your dad too.

JMO.
Peggy

[Artos]

When I posted, I expected ORDINARY people who have corgis to respond...not just people who saw themselves as 'corgi experts'. Was disappointed when I didnt hear from the non-experts.

On one hand- the experts might have some good advice. But let's say that right now, I dont want any more advice from 'experts' anymore.

I want respect and some breathing space for my own views.

My opinion is:
1. Barn2 can live with other dogs with some proper training- possibly from the GSD people. I know my dog. If Trax the very aggressive boy can be such a great brother to Barn2 - I dont see why softey Barn2 cannot be a brother to other dogs. Trainers dont have to be breed experts.

2 We WILL get one or more corgis in the family. Dont worry- we wont get them from experts.

3 The Maid IS ABLE (in our country- maids do more than just handle dad, dogs and housework. They are VERY capable and thats the basic part of their jobs) to handle the situation.

[glencorgi]

Ya know Artos, I see a lot of denial and find it highly disrespectful to blow off ordinary people who are living with dogs same as yours day to day. The main difference is we aren't passing the responsibilty of dealing with them off on someone else, hired help or not. We are in the thick of it, hands on ourselves; along with asking questions, reading, researching and picking up tips and advice wherever we can to improve our abilities.

I have an 11 - 12 year female rescue corgi sleeping in my house now that loves cats, children and people but is dog aggressive; she cannot be around another dog. The one time I accidentally let out my eldest Pem girl (who is fine with males, but not other females) and the two of them went at each other. The result was a puncture wound on my girl's front leg that pierced through the entire muscle. I could have put a ring through it, if I chose. (Don't ask about the vet bill.)

I can tell you about the dog aggressive corgi boy that mixed it up with one of my male Cardigans. (Don't ask about hubby's doctor bill when his leg ended up where it shouldn't have.)

I get in corgis all the time via my rescue work that have to be only dogs OR in a home that will keep them separated from other dogs always. As most of the applicants I get are like yourself and intent on everybody being buddies, then it takes longer to place them, simply because some people fail to be realistic.

What happens IF in your training the the maid gets bitten? That's asking a lot of any employee, <IMHO>. What happens IF your Father gets bitten if the two boys start at each other even after all the training?

Short of it, your two dogs don't like each other. Tracing back to Trax, that fought with both of them, they've learned the best defense is a good offense and their behaviors stem from encounters with him. I don't feel either one of them are soft, nor are either one of them alphas. I do hope the GSD trainer can take some leadership and help with the dogs, but the only way any solutions he might offer are going to work long term is if you and everyone in the household listens and follows his advice. I also am at a loss as to why beginning training has to wait until the maid arrives. You are the owner and the dogs are your responsibility. Training should have begun a long time ago, but there is much you can do on you own now, if you take responsibility.

I never doubted you wouldn't add more corgis, just a matter of time before the inevitable happens.

But at least you have cleared up some of the human rights issues facing Singapore.

Debbie

[Artos]

I dont see Taflar and yourself as 'ordinary folks' with corgis. Not in this site, not in the previous corgi site. You are the two who write like 'corgi experts', giving your strong opinions about corgi standards and behavior. That is your perogative but I dont appreciate your jumping to conclusions re: my situation and my dogs even when I tell you it isnt as bad as you all describe it to be. It is not denial on my part. When I clarify the actual situation- I still get the same responses from both of you- responses that are based on previous biased (and inaccurate) views that you have held re my dogs. I have not said that Marky doesnt like Barn2. He has wagged his tail at Barn2 and invited him to play as well. I have not said that all three are always at loggerheads. Barn2 loves Trax and even after some struggles with him, grooms him and plays with him. They used to sleep together (before Trax died). But you dont hear these things. You only hear- "fight!" "aggressive dogs", "danger".

No one is saying that there will be a passing of full responsibility to the maid. There will be a SHARED responsibility. The maid will help me with the dogs. But you dont hear that either.

I just dont want to be bullied or put down by people- especially those who have preconceived ideas and issues about Singapore ('human rights') etc.

Previously there were attempts from one of you to 'prove' that people from my part of the world are 'pro-male and anti-female' when I said I didnt want to neuter Barn2. Now there's insinuations that we would be unfair to the maid etc. If you want to live with your preconceived ideas about people from my part of the world- that all of us are not good dog owners, that we dont value our female dogs, that we mistreat maids etc...then go ahead. It is a deeply prejudicial, hurtful, patronising position.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Artos, I am one of those "ordinary" owners that you are probably speaking about. And I feel rather safe in saying that the reason that you haven't received responses from the "ordinary" owners is that we are not equipped to handle such issues, it was nothing personal, you know that. We just don't have an answer, and really, nobody on this site has a miracle cure for you because we are not there, we do not see the situation for how it accurately is, and most on here do not have a grasp of the Asian culture. All I can add is this, I have a dog who hates other dogs, with a passion, and as much as I always wanted another dog(another Corgi), I made no attempt to get another(Mojo fell into our lap and by the grace of God Miss Gambler fell in love with her, but she still hates other dogs.) I could never bring another dog into my home without "fixing" the problem(and with a professional's help), and it may be a problem that can't be fixed. I have been hoping that after getting used to Mojo that her attitude would change, it hasn't. I think that the "experts" have only been trying to point out that you have a problem that needs to be fixed first, and by you, (and I understand exactly what you mean by your maid situation, my hubby had one as a child before coming to the US and she was a nanny, cook, maid, and dog watcher as well as tended to his elderly grand-parents, and that is the norm in Asian countries) but we are used to only one way of training here, that the dog is required to respect us and our wishes, not our employees, that sort of makes them their dog. I want you to have your Corgi, but I agree that there is a reason that you have a dog who has to stay outdoors and separated, and that that reason needs to be addressed, and before bringing in another puppy. This is a problem that could very well be solved, but it shouldn't be ignored. (I say this with much love and respect, and you know that.)

[glencorgi]

I dont see Taflar and yourself as 'ordinary folks' with corgis. Not in this site, not in the previous corgi site. You are the two who write like 'corgi experts', giving your strong opinions about corgi standards and behavior.

Peggy and I are breed people, but not necessarily the only ones one here. We are students of the corgi breeds. We are very active in rescue and have been around lots of corgi lists for many years and we live with multiple dogs/corgis. Again, nothing particularly "unique" just to the two of us.

That is your perogative but I dont appreciate your jumping to conclusions re: my situation and my dogs even when I tell you it isnt as bad as you all describe it to be. It is not denial on my part.

There's no jumping to conclusions, merely translating what is happening from your own words.

When I clarify the actual situation- I still get the same responses from both of you- responses that are based on previous biased (and inaccurate) views that you have held re my dogs.

One incident is one thing, repetitive incidents, someone has a problem. It can be denied or rationalised about anyway you want to. They're your words describing what's happended with your dogs.

I have not said that Marky doesnt like Barn2. He has wagged his tail at Barn2 and invited him to play as well.

A wagging tail is not always a sign of good will. However, it does sound as if Marky is the best all around tempered one of your dogs and that's been fairly consistent in everything you've written.

I have not said that all three are always at loggerheads. Barn2 loves Trax and even after some struggles with him, grooms him and plays with him. They used to sleep together (before Trax died). But you dont hear these things. You only hear- "fight!" "aggressive dogs", "danger".

No, I'm hearing iffy tempered corgis that have been allowed to get away with behaviors they shouldn't have until situations have escalated out of control and the dogs are the ones in charge.

No one is saying that there will be a passing of full responsibility to the maid. There will be a SHARED responsibility. The maid will help me with the dogs. But you dont hear that either.

But they aren't the maid's dogs, they are your dogs and you are posting as if there isn't a thing you possibly can do about the situation, as if you are helpless until a maid is hired. Bollucks, you only have two dogs.

I just dont want to be bullied or put down by people- especially those who have preconceived ideas and issues about Singapore ('human rights') etc.

I had/have no preconceived notions about the culture of Singapore. (I majored in Anthropology in college.) What I've learned about it came from what you've shared.

Previously there were attempts from one of you to 'prove' that people from my part of the world are 'pro-male and anti-female' when I said I didnt want to neuter Barn2.

Well it is a fact that many Asian cultures do not value women. China, with the infanticide rate of female babies and daughters because sons are more important being one example. It is the nature of a patriarchy. Refusal to neuter male dogs can be an extension of that and that certainly is not restricted to any one culture by any means. That's pretty much international.

Now there's insinuations that we would be unfair to the maid etc. If you want to live with your preconceived ideas about people from my part of the world- that all of us are not good dog owners, that we dont value our female dogs, that we mistreat maids etc...then go ahead. It is a deeply prejudicial, hurtful, patronising position.

There were no such insinuations on my part, you were the one who brought up human rights issues previously.

Just a thought tho', a danger in asking for advice; the answers one might get aren't always the ones one wants to hear. But to respect your wishes, there'll be no future intrusion into your world on my part.

Debbie

[Merlincorgi]

I agree with what MGM said in regards to why "common" owners have not responded. Let's face it.. there is NO way any of us (regardless of experience) can read what you write... no matter how detailed... and tell you a definite solution. There is SO much behind commication between two dogs... stuff that is often missed, even when someone really truely KNOWS what they are doing and is looking at them in person.

We have suggested taking the dogs for walks... only to be told you can't handle them by yourself? I don't understand that... if I can handle and help train a 175lb English Mastiff that is all muscle, why can you not handle a 30lb corgi? That doesn't make sense to me, but I have not spoken up because I assumed there was some type of extenuating circumstance there that we are not aware of. If you really can't handle the dogs (for whatever reason.. ) then your first step is to work with a professional dog handler (not the maid) and get some proper obiedence technics going with them both. THEN you can attempt some introductions (NOT at home.. in an open park or something where neither dog is "protecting" their own turf) and try to integrate Marky into the house properly. I have to say here... I STRONGLY disagree with poor Marky being locked in the yard all the time... and until the time comes that you are able to fix that issue (if possible) then I also strongly disagree with adding another dog to the mix.. puppy or not. You are putting your dogs at risk by doing so and evading the problems that you are having. I saw how much hurt and pain you went through loosing Trax and I would dearly hate to see it happen again to a puppy because of a dog fight that got out of control (these I know about... I have at least 6 puncture marks in various areas from breaking up these kinds of fights!).

I freely admit to not understanding your culture. Here you would never hear of a maid caring for elderly.. and certainly not dogs. Maids here are hired to clean house and maybe prepare meals. Babysitters watch kids, nurses aids help elderly.. and dog trainers or walkers work with dogs. One person does not do it all... so that is a hard concept for most of us to understand. Regardless how you (and your help) go about it... I don't think there is any more advice that a "common" owner can give you above and beyond what you have heard already. Now the question is how willing are you to do the work that is needed before introducing a new dog to the mix and making matters worse?

I sincerely hope you don't take offense to this reply... as it is just my opinion based on the few facts that we do know... keep in mind that none of us can know the true story without being there and THAT is why I feel you need to bring in a professional dog handler or trainer that can witness the family structure and dog behaviour first hand. Best of luck!

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Just so everyone knows, the maid situation is not unique to Asian countries, but to the culture. When we were looking for a maid, hubby wanted me to specifically look for a Vietnamese woman, one who could cook the dishes that his grandmother did(I certainly can't!) and in interviewing them, I would always be asked, how many kids do you have? I was amazed, but it was just assumed that they would be taking care of the kids as well. Hubby explained it all to me, that it's the norm. Our maid got off lucky then, no kids, but she does love spending time with the dogs, but then who wouldn't??? I also understand the dog situation in your country, how there are a vast number of people who have turned their homes into shelters because the dogs are not getting help any other way. And I know that Marky, by being such a rescue, is better off in your backyard than where he was originally, but that situation is one that could be remedied. Wouldn't it be great to have him peacefully living indoors?

[Artos]

MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy : Yes, you understand my situation.
You plus Checkers and Gator,
Its people like you that I appreciate hearing from. You dont know all the answers and you admit so even while sharing your views. You suggest rather than insist on teaching from a higher level. There is a give and take. We can learn together.
You try to hear where I am coming from rather than impose American culture and situation on my culture and situation.

MAID
Most people here will say that the maid is extremely fortunate to be working for me since there are no kids to worry about, we are not fussy about food or cooking and that she has only to take care of dad (who is mobile, active but needs some watching lest he leaves doors open, chicken bones on the floor for the dogs to eat etc) 2 dogs and do housework. All maids multi-task here.

BACK YARD DOG
Marky is very fortunate to live with us. He has more space to run than 90 per cent of dogs in Singapore. We dont have land space like you do in the USA. Only 20 per cent of people in Singapore live in private condos and houses with land space. We happen to be one of these. Marky of the back yard has more space than most dogs.

Most people do not let dogs live inside their homes. Those in govt sponsored apartments do have dogs in their homes but the dogs are usually allowed to move only in their very tiny kitchen area or in their living room (possibly slightly bigger than your average bathroom space in Texas). We are very unusual in that we have our dogs inside our rooms and on our beds. Most people here think that we are raving mad to do that. Trax and Barn had/has that privilege. Would be good if Marky can have access to that but given the situation- we are happy letting Marky be the backyard dog. He is happy with that too since he isnt used to being in the house either.

BARN
I keep saying that Barn2 isnt as much a problem as people seem to think. He doesnt hate other dogs. He is not THAT aggressive and he is a soft dog. He got on with Trax and ok, he did have his moments when he tried to take over...but after that, he was sweet to Trax. He has been with other dogs too. There havent been problems with a few that he associated with.
I know my dogs. Whatever I have said in the past is in the context of this as well.

But I am very frustrated that all the 'experts' hear is the report on the aggression and not anything else. When I try to balance up their perceptions, they ignore that and maintain their biased position. More than that- blow up the aggression part and focus on it alone. No, I dont want to hear from the experts anymore. I had enough.

ANOTHER CORGI
I want to get another corgi but I havent said WHEN. Even when we had the permission from the authorities to have the 4th dog (when Trax was around), we didnt go ahead to get the 4th dog. We waited for the right time. We are still waiting. 3rd dog,4th dog. Not yet.

WALKS
Too much to write here re the differences. Suffice to say that it isnt easy to walk dogs in Singapore streets. It is not America. People are not dog friendly. Traffic is everywhere. People are all around. Some hate dogs. Some fear dogs. Dog parks? None. Human parks- not that close in the vicinity. Dog runs-limited opening hours and limited to those who pass a test.

MAID AND DOGS
Maid is part of the family. Dog isnt under ONE person in the family but under everyone in the family. We dont operate as individuals but as a family here. So whats wrong with maid handling the dog?

Of course I will get a professional handler to train- but the maid needs to be trained to handle one of the dogs. I will handle the other dog. I have undergone dog obed. training before and I have trained dogs before too. (My GSD won second prize in obedience). I have done some basic training with Marky and Barn2. But I had not wanted to train them all the way until now.

It takes two persons to handle two dogs.
Note that we are not big sized like Americans.
My Marky is probably slightly lighter than I. Barn2 is more than one third of my body weight.

THE GSD Trainers
I have consulted several trainers. Some have visited the house and observed the situation. In the past- Trax was the main problem. There was no way of solving it because Trax was very aggressive to Marky. After Trax died- I consulted 2 GSD trainers. One of the GSD trainers said after observing the dogs interact with one another- "its not a big problem".
When the maid comes, i intend to take her and the two dogs with me for the dog obedience classes /dog socialisation classes with the GSD club.

[MVons]

Well here is a solo dog owner. I think it is a compliment to Peggy and Debbie that you think they are experts. They are experienced breeders. Do they have all the answers, no but they have a point of view I like to hear. I have purchased training books because I didn't have experience with the positive training techniques. This was beyond my budget, but necessary when I want to know how people train their dogs without saying no.

My opinion is you don't allow Barn to look at Marky unless you are there to bodily block his view if necessary. Just like I cannot let Chester remain loose when I go upstairs, he has to go in his crate each time. (Laundry is upstairs). To do otherwise is asking for dog trouble.

I was one of those people who thought I could always pet a dog - a bulldog taught me otherwise last year. He was sick and I didn't know from heart trouble and just wanted to be left alone, but still "protect" his place. I was old school training with the coins in the can until I recently read about the trauma that caused to a noise sensitive sheltie. I am a very protective of Chester because out past dog Pepper had fears. Chester started out very hesitant and has blossomed (just like my son). We had a great thunder storm and I put on the classical music and Chester was fine.

The picture Debbie painted of a hole in the leg is perfect for me to not encourage Chester to "get to know" a dog that is aggressive to him. Because society encourages everyone to get along, I appreciate this information to help me limit Chester's chance to have a trauma incident.

Debbie and Peggy have dealt with a huge variety of personalities and temperaments and thus they do speak strongly because they hope we won't go through the same situations they have. They don't dream/expect any of us to follow everything they say, they would like to be heard in case someone like me does learn from their experiences.

Chester has shown no aggression at all. Pepper at age 15 was ready to take the head off the jack russell. I would have never thought of bringing in a puppy with Pepper's crankiness. Chester encountered a cranky 11 year old who kept coming up to him and growling. I couldn't believe the dog kept approaching unless jealous of his mates having a great time with Chester.

How is Barn2 with other dogs? Does he ever growl at other dogs. If yes, then I would personally question whether he is soft. Yes, not an out of control aggressive dog, but one with some aggression.

Do you have the opportunity to get a dog instead of a puppy? Here is my bias, I will not have a puppy on an airplane because of noise trauma (studies show thunder fear is always in puppies who flew). Heck we still can't take Chester in our rumbling 72 Chevy truck because it is too loud. With a dog you could see how they would interact before sealing a contract.

[Artos]

Thanks. I am open to getting a grown up dog or a pup. But thats not key on my mind at the moment. Getting another dog was the first thought in my mind within a week of Trax's death because of Barn's grief. But that has passed. Whats on my mind is nowis to get Barn and Marky to co exist in a more acceptable way- even to play with one another if possible.

After Trax's death, Barn did go up to the door grill and look rather wistfully at Marky. There were times I wondered if he wanted to have a companion to play with. Marky has approached the grills with his tail wagging and his paw playfully hitting at the grills at Barn. Done it several times. Jespah might be right in that Marky's size can intimidate Barn because Barn would stiffen up. They take turns to start the growl. Barn specialises in THE STARE before the growl. All it takes was a shout or a clap from the GSD trainer/myself and both stop that immediately. Marky might then wag his tail and paw the grill again...
I have managed to pet both of them without incident while they were sitting next to each other (with the door grill separating them).

Barn has been with at least five dogs in the past and there were no incidents of any growling/fighting. But with some dogs, he has been growley.
I am only concerned with his relationship with Marky at present. Hence training him and Marky together at the GSD club meetings would help.

[taflar]

I dont see Taflar

First, my name is Peggy and I always sign my posts with my name. Please refer to me as Peggy. Thank you.

and yourself as 'ordinary folks' with corgis. Not in this site, not in the previous corgi site. You are the two who write like 'corgi experts', giving your strong opinions about corgi standards and behavior.

Dogs have become a very huge part of my life. I have spent 28+ years living with multiple dogs and learning all I can about them. So, if that doesn't give me some degree of "expertese" I don't know what will.

Besides my own dogs I am involved with rescue and right now I have three dogs that are in foster care. I have fostered many dogs and placed them.

I know you've said it's not as bad as we think it is, but we got that idea from you and what you posted. That and our expericnces with similar dogs.

I too live with a dog that isn't great with other dogs. Lacy likes Merlin and she tolerates her own kids. Beyond that she has no use for other dogs. She HATES Lady. Lacy and Lady can never be loose together. I don't even trust a baby gate to keep them from each other.

No one is saying that there will be a passing of full responsibility to the maid. There will be a SHARED responsibility. The maid will help me with the dogs. But you dont hear that either.

Yes, we hear it, and I have to admit I don't understand it. I know there are cultural differences and I am trying to understand that. But like Debbie I see the dogs as yours and your responsibility.

I just dont want to be bullied or put down by people- especially those who have preconceived ideas and issues about Singapore ('human rights') etc.

I am not trying to bully you. Nor am I trying to put you down. I am only giving you advice based on my own life experiences. Wheather you take that advice or not is up to you. I only expect you to read it and think it over. And if some of it will work for you great. If not then that's your choice. (The same with any advice I offer to anyone.)

I do not have preconcived notions of Singapore. I don't know it well enough to have any preconcieved notions. And I have said that I don't understand the maid situation and still think it's a lot to ask of a maid. But if that's the way it works in your country and you can hire some one to do all that you're asking , well, that's great.

Previously there were attempts from one of you to 'prove' that people from my part of the world are 'pro-male and anti-female' when I said I didnt want to neuter Barn2.

I don't recall anyone trying to prove you or people from your country are pro male and anti female. And I don't see what that has to do with neutering Barn. My advice on that was that neutering him would help with the fighting. It decreases aggressive tendencies. And I advise anyone with a dog who fights to alter them.

I'm sorry I offended you but I stand by my advice. Take it or leave it that's your choice. I was not trying to belittle you or insult you in any way.

And I won't be offering you any more advice on your dogs. Good luck with them.


Peggy

[Artos]

Thank you, Peggy. Appreciated the good intentions of your knowledge input/sharing.

---------

Been thinking through as to what I was upset about:
I think it is about three issues:

1. I dont feel that what I said was truly heard.
I have said "A" (the bad) and "B" (the good) about my dogs. I didnt feel that I was heard when I said "B" to balance up the "A".

Its like me saying," (A)I have symptoms of a flu: I sneeze a lot and my eyes are watery BUT (B) there's no fever and I remembered that I had touched a cat a few hours ago: I am allergic to their fur...so it might be just an allergy". But the response from others focused on the first section (A)and comes out as " I think you have the avian flu" despite my protestations that the situation isnt THAT serious even if I am asking for some kind of help.

2. I need help from another person to handle the dogs. It isnt letting go of responsibility. It is taking full reponsibility at pretty high cost to myself.

The GSD trainers (and four others whom I have consulted before) all told me that the situation can be improved if I had help from another person to handle the dogs in training/in the home etc. Not possible for one person to handle both dogs.

Note that the size, weight and height of many Asians are not the same as those of Westerners. When Marky stands up, he is my height or taller. I am only 4 ft 11 and three quarters. He is probably slightly lighter than I. Barn is 20 kg. I am about 50 kg. Hence I am taking all the trouble (and cost) to get a maid. If that is not taking a lot of responsibility for the dogs, what is?

3.Cultural issues: we think in communal terms. While the buck stops with me, the whole household/family- maid included as family-is involved in training and care of the dogs. And yes- maids multitask here. It isnt abuse. It is part of their job description. Abuse is when they are expected to work with very few rest hours and no off days in a week. I too am strongly against that kind of abuse.

[glencorgi]

Just for the record, Artos and I are the same height and size, so I hope it is taken into consideration that I was not expecting anything more of her than I am or do of myself.

Debbie

[Merlincorgi]

Artos... I think you are making size a bigger issue here than it should be. I applaud the fact that you are willing to hire extra help as you feel you need it, but the point is that you shouldn't need the help to walk or handle either of your dogs (at least not one at a time).

I am only 5 inches taller than you... and I have simulataneously walked two english mastiffs (females, Callie and Gracie over 150lbs each), a Bassett Hound (female, Lilly, approx 35lbs?), and a Labrador puppy (male, Buddy, approx 40lbs and growing). This was part of my job requirement (straight out of high school) working at the kennels and it never even crossed my mind that I shouldn't be able to do it. Size is not a viable excuse, in my opinion. You attitude has a lot more to do with your ability to handle (or not handle) a dog. If you are not confident in yourself then your dogs will never truely see you as a pack leader... no matter how many little "tricks" you follow (like eating first, entering rooms first, etc). This is in reference to handling and training which you should be able to start now with both dogs on a one on one basis. At this point I can understand your misapprehenshion of trying to handle them both at one time, but I still have not seen a good reason provided why you are not able to work with them individually. Even working on heel, sit, down, and stay in your yard or house is better than nothing. Doing those little exercises will help give you confidence in your handling abilities... and improve the responses both dogs have with you.... as well as helping establish you as leader in the house.

I think the most difference you're going to see is when you get the other GSD trainers out there to help you with things. That is an excellent step to take.

It may not ever be possible for you to live comfortably in the house with both dogs... but with the descriptions you have given of their personalities, I think there is a good chance that they could live harmoniously. It will take work though... and constant vigilance on everyone's part to make sure nobody gets hurt during the adjustment phase. I wish you the best of luck with it!

Oh.. .one final tip.. and this may seem silly but I learned it first hand with my own GSD mix. If you introduce two dogs, and you get tense worrying or expecting them to fight... they WILL fight. It's hard, but you have to approach it every time with the attitude that everything is going to be just fine. That is hard to do when you are simultaneously trying to remain vigilant so nobody gets hurt. The best thing I have found if introducing two dogs at home (as you are)... open the door... and you walk out and keep walking... ignore the dogs at first... no eye contact. Might not be a bad idea to have a hose handy to spray them down in case a fight breaks out (the best way to break up a dog fight with the least risk to yourself). You do this with more than one person present also, but each of you needs to make sure to follow the rules. If you (as pack leader) gets upset or worried the "pack" will look at you as being unstable and will take it out on the other dog. I hope that makes sense. It's not fool-proof, but it definitely helps. Don't draw attention to the fact that you are introducing the dogs... just pretend it's perfectly normal for them to be together and like you do this all the time.

[Artos]

Thanks Checkers and Gator. Twenty plus years ago- I was handling two German Shepherds (Alsatians) plus my Great Dane together. That was when I was in my twenties. I am much, much older now(even if I dont look it)..with painful spurs on the heel of each foot. Am not able to handle both the corgi and the mutt together. Yup. I am looking forward to getting help from the GSD trainers and the maid.

BTW, when I talk about handling the dogs, I am not refering to dog walking nor basic training. I have no problems with handling/walking each of them- separately. And have been doing so. And these two do know that I am boss. The problem is when I want the two to meet up - thats when I cant handle it alone.

It might sound funny but the last fight between Barn2 and Marky was a hopeful sign to me. When they didnt really attack each other (even their growls were not that aggressive as I had feared), I had a feeling that they might be able to get along under some supervision after all. But again- the exercise of having THE ENCOUNTER between the two of them will have to be when I get the GSD people/maid to help me. It is not just a matter of confidence. ALL the trainers I have consulted ( 5 to 6 of them ranging from those who use the choke chain to those who use only the clicker method)- said the same thing: it takes 2 persons to handle both dogs.