aggression toward children

[pookabeansjd]

I am curious.

Ellie is aggressive towards children. If she sees or hears a child playing outside she barks and growls. I tried once holding her to have a child approach and she tried to bite.

As there are no small children in my house (i'm the youngest) it is really not a problem, but in the future it definately could be. (not anytime soon though) Is there any way to correct this behavior without risking a child?

Oddly, she is not aggressive with other young things (birds, cats, puppies), only children. (i suspect that she might have been tormented by the 3 kids of her prev owners, although I dont know for sure) When we adopted Ellie, her breeder only asked if we had children in the house, when we replied no shd did not inform us of anything else.

I just dont know how to address this issue. thank you for any advice

[MVons]

I have to say when I read your thread title, I said to myself, "because kids can be little pains". When children aren't talk to be nice to animals, they can torment them terribly. I sadly watched a neighbor's dog turn from sweet to mean as he was kept outside and we walked by. I never saw who as it was down around the street, I just watched the differences as we walked to school.

I know having a very calm child work with you is the first step. You have the child throw treats to the dog. No other interaction. You have to find someone who won't run to the dog, or reach out when they think the dog is fine. It is a slow process but achievable. Patricia Mconnell worked with a dog afraid of men so check out her books which are enjoyable reading.

You are smart to try to help as children will reach out quickly to your dog even if you are yelling "not a friendly dog". I have an advantage with Chester's size, the kids do hesitate. I like that. Maybe you don't have that problem if Marley is with you. Will Marley slobber the kids so they can't get close to Ellie?

[manymuddypaws]

this is a hard thing to overcome but it can be done. I wouldn't let a child approach her at all- Merrie has the right idea with the throwing of cookies and rewarding for good calm behaviour with kids. There are lots of great books about dealing with this sort of thing- Jean Donaldson has written some very good books on this subject.

[MrsGrace]

I was going to suggest working with a professional if you really want to modify the behavior. They'll be more likely to have safe alternatives to sculpting a new behavior.

I also agree with the suggestion that the sight of kids means "treat!" and "loves". Don't reward aggressive behavior, Ellie gets aggressive and all play/fun stops and she is removed from the situation. Hopefully she'll get the idea soon enough.

Have you tried using a clicker ever?
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/343

I know my local library has that book and it might have some good suggestions/ideas. Even if you don't use a clicker, you can use a word like "YES!" and treat.

Let us know what you end up doing and what seems to be working!

[pookabeansjd]

. Maybe you don't have that problem if Marley is with you. Will Marley slobber the kids so they can't get close to Ellie?

I was trying to introduce marley to some kids a few weeks ago and the kid came running up the yard and Marley freaked out. I scolded the kid, as marley was dragging me down the street, saying that it is frightening to have someone run full speed to your face.

There really arent many kids around my neighborhood, and when I'm out with ellie or marley they normally aren't out. (especially with this warm weather they get walks late in the evening)

The problem with ellie and children is much like someone else described their dog and a fear of a wet suit--as soon as she realied a child was near she freaks out. at the moment, i dont remember if she has been aggressive outside of the nieghborhood (on petsmart trips), but most definately when she is in the car, or when she hears them playing in the street.

I'll check out the books you've all listed. I'd like to work on this.

[Jespah]

I think there's been some good advice - although I see a potential for danger with the "throwing of treats". If the dog is asked to sit and the treat is thrown away from them - that's fine. Throwing treats to a dog will teach it that it has to snap at them - so if you progress towards the child handing the treat to the dog - they could get bitten inadvertantly.

[MVons]

Poor you and Marley. Has he seen the frightening stroller yet? Chester saw it when he was smaller (easier to control). This past week was the bike attachment that a child can ride in. Chester gave it a scolding bark. His bark is so booming the child inside was too afraid to pet Chester to calm him down. With the stroller, the parents allowed Chester to calm down and their child to pet him. We were lucky to have good outcome of something of fright.

Hey, maybe for Halloween you can put up a chair with a sign with a bowl of dog treats - first very large print DOG FOOD so they can see through their costumes. Then a sign, must have a DOG food in hand in order for me to open the door to give YOU a treat. They can throw the food in to keep the dogs away from the door. Just an idea, though I don't know if you have a screen door or what. Ellie might give the kids and Marley gobbling the treats a second chance.

[pookabeansjd]

normally we dont hand out treats for halloween as the kids are kinda crazy in the neighborhood, and mike and i are frequently studying late (law school argh!) But that might be an idea, at least for marley for sure.

We have not yet encountered teh stroller. But he is getting much better with evil bikes and skateboards. It was rough for the last month or so, because while Marley was going through his surgery and recovery he was also in a fear stage. But he is ok most of the time with bikes and runners.

[sutulu]

My two want to jump and lick small children so I keep them on a very short leash. Many times I will put them in a sit then put an arm around each of them until they are secure, then tell a child they can pet them.

My little two year old neighbor from up the hill will come down and she has learned to say "don't jump" to them. It's very funny to hear her command them! Regardless, I keep them very close to me and in a "sit" when kids are around.

[Kassie]

Boy, that's such an important one! Our previous female was bad with children due to some bad experiences as a pup. We always had to put her away when kids visited. That was so hard, but she was just not going to change. I would be tempted to try working with a professional if at all possible. It sounds like she is worse on her turf (home and car.) Megan wouldn't tolerate them anywhere, so we couldn't take her anywhere, which was a bummer. Good luck in desensitizing yours!!

[Fluffypants]

I think there's been some good advice - although I see a potential for danger with the "throwing of treats". If the dog is asked to sit and the treat is thrown away from them - that's fine. Throwing treats to a dog will teach it that it has to snap at them - so if you progress towards the child handing the treat to the dog - they could get bitten inadvertantly.

One way to avoid the throwing / snapping is for YOU to give the treats to Ellie while she is calm in the presence of a child. The training would progress the same way and give essentially the same message (presence of child = treats), the only difference is that YOU give the treats until training has prgressed far enough so that the child can get close enough to gently toss the treat to land right in front of Ellie (again no mid-air snapping), or drop the treat at her feet. The goal eventually (meaning far down the road) being that the child can hold out the treat for Ellie to take. Just make sure that she doesn't get reinforced for bad behavior. She can only have the treat if she is calm, not barking, not aggressive. Start with the child as far away as necessary for her to feel comfortable with their presence. Good luck! +WUBCLUB+

[pookabeansjd]

I've been able to do that with marley. Now he knows that he must sit calmly (no jumping or snapping) to get a treat from me, and additionally he cannot take it from my outheld hand until i've given the word.
I've been trying to teach ellie the same, but she is much tougher. But as soon as she smells the kibble she goes for it. Oddly enough, when my b/f's great aunt was living with us, she would feed ellie under the table (no matter how many times we told her not to) and ellie would take a treat gently from her, but with anyone else she snatches it and nips fingers. She does know to sit to get a piece, but as soon as you go to give it to her she jumps. (and more frequently than not just takes it out of your hand as you remove it to try again)

I'm gonna try taking her outside when the kids are out and see what happens. as long as she is on the leash and i can remove her from any situation, i might be able to make some progress. I know it will take a long time, but i would like to have her around children one day.

Ellie, my basket case, is my first dog, and i really want her to be happy and healthy. The walking has helped alot as she has soooo much more energy than i've ever seen her have, and since her overall health seems to be improving, i want to improve her psychological health.

thanks for the advice.

[Fluffypants]

You are on the right track and are doing what's best for her. Stay strong and don't give up!!! +CHEER+

[taflar]

Ellie is aggressive towards children. If she sees or hears a child playing outside she barks and growls. I tried once holding her to have a child approach and she tried to bite.

As there are no small children in my house (i'm the youngest) it is really not a problem, but in the future it definately could be. (not anytime soon though) Is there any way to correct this behavior without risking a child?

Oddly, she is not aggressive with other young things (birds, cats, puppies), only children. (i suspect that she might have been tormented by the 3 kids of her prev owners, although I dont know for sure) When we adopted Ellie, her breeder only asked if we had children in the house, when we replied no shd did not inform us of anything else.

I just dont know how to address this issue. thank you for any advice

I agree with those that have told you to seek professional advice.

To desensitize would involve having her around kids. So IMO, this is not safe and IMO, it would be better to just keep her away from kids.

Even with professional help, you do not have enough time to desensitize her before halloween. It takes time and sometimes quite awhile. So for this year at the very least, keep her away from the kids. And remember they won't be "normal looking" kids, they will have costumes and that alone frightens some dogs. Even those that like kids.

I think your best bet is to have her crated or behind a baby gate or closed door just for saftey.

Peggy

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

And Peggy, it's not just costumes, we thought that we had a pretty friendly dog in Mojo, she loves to greet and lick everyone, but we had a little boy approach us(and properly, his parents asked) and I told him that he could just pet Mojo, well, he was wearing a bike helmet and it set her off. They walked away looking, and I am sure talking, about our mad dog. Mojo sounded like a killer! But she does like kids.

Now Miss Gambler does not like kids, at all, and I appreciate that and will not, and do not allow her around kids, nor allow kids to approach or pet her. It will take a professional to change this, and has me very worried. (But it should be noted that Miss Gambler has NEVER had a positive experience with kids, and I don't feel safe at all to use kids to change this. The very first time that she went to a park after she had been properly vaccinated and her paws could hit the ground, we sat on benches and watched a kids softball game, which she enjoyed and showed no problem being around kids, but when we got up to leave and had taken a couple of steps, two kids(mean little boys!) jumped down off the bleachers and landed right behind Miss G and yelled and yelled at her. That was her very first Cujo moment. She has reacted strongly to kids ever since, even the ones on tv.)

[taflar]

And Peggy, it's not just costumes, we thought that we had a pretty friendly dog in Mojo, she loves to greet and lick everyone, but we had a little boy approach us(and properly, his parents asked) and I told him that he could just pet Mojo, well, he was wearing a bike helmet and it set her off. They walked away looking, and I am sure talking, about our mad dog. Mojo sounded like a killer! But she does like kids.

True, anything that makes a child or even an adult look different can scare a dog.

Sometimes they can get used to the different looks if they see them often enough. Otherwise they just don't understand.

Peggy

[pookabeansjd]

I dont let any of my dogs out at halloween between the children in costumes and the candy and eggs (unfortunately) in teh street, it is not safe, even if ellie was ok with children.

I will look into professionals. THank you.

[mtoy]

True, anything that makes a child or even an adult look different can scare a dog.

Sometimes they can get used to the different looks if they see them often enough. Otherwise they just don't understand.

Peggy

:LAUGH:Like when we were visiting the relative and 'Uncle Billy' took his shirt off. OMG, it sure set Link off! (I don't blame Link one bit though, it was NOT a pretty sight)

On a more serious note, Millie is picky about little kids, so I keep them all away from her. She doesn't like anyone going over top of her, and kids just do this naturally. And Halloween, yikes - I never let dogs out then, too risky all around.