Training Class Advice Needed...

[LaRositaMonita]

I just got through discussing with with Jess over AIM (by the way Jess..sorry may have seemed to disappear...Colin got home from work!) and am wondering if you all can offer your opinions.

Mac had another terrible night at puppy class. His issue has been, and continues to be, heeling. Basically, he seems to know what "heel" means but, after walking with you a few steps, consistently decides to wander away from your side/sniff the ground/see if he can find a playmate/pick something up/pull ahead/etc. He is..somewhat okay on actual walks, but is CONSTANTLY distracted in class. This has been an issue from day one.

After taking Mac from me last night and trying to correct him, the trainer outright told me to get him a prong collar because he needed stronger correction. Now, I understand that these generally have a bad rap and aren't as cruel as some would have us believe, but... on a Corgi? I was far less than pleased with the suggestion, and I'm not sure that Mac needs such a strong correction (although I will admit that the correction his training collar provides doesn't seem to be helping him get the picture).

Jess agreed with me and says Mac is just a puppy and can't be expected to heel very well at this point in time. I'd prefer not to make excuses for him, but Jess also indicated that based on how we "taught" Mac to heel in class (sit at your side, left foot forward, give the command...praise if he does what he ought to, correct if he doesn't), there just isn't enough in it for him. Basically, we need to be using more positive reinforcement, which definitely isn't the method our trainer is using to teach him.

To make matters worse, I'm starting to see other problems with this trainer come out of the woodwork as we move up to more advanced classes with Mac. She has said in no uncertain terms that she just doesn't plain like Corgis because she thinks they're stubborn and dominant. (Now, Corgi can be these things...but I'm paying you good money to help train my dog! I could bring a wolf in and it would still be your job to tell me what a cute, well-behaved, civilized little pup he is.) She is therefore convinced that Mac's floor-sniffing and wandering are signs of dominance rather than disinterest or distraction. We just seem to be interpreting the motivation for Mac's behavior very differently...

I am thinking of find a new place to take Mac to class after this class ends; next on our list is official preparation for the CGC/TDI test. (Mac will finally be ten months of age by the time we start that class with him...minimum age for taking the test.) There is another local training facility near is that comes recommend by our vet: www.whatagooddoginc.com. Right now I'm thinking that, since we've already paid for the remaining six weeks of Mac's current class, I call in a couple of weeks to this other place to find out when their next CGC prep class starts.

What do you think I should do? Should we not wait and looking into switching classes right away? Should we suck it up and get the prong collar in the meantime? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill/just being an overly protective mom...?

What do you think?

[taflar]

Mac had another terrible night at puppy class. His issue has been, and continues to be, heeling. Basically, he seems to know what "heel" means but, after walking with you a few steps, consistently decides to wander away from your side/sniff the ground/see if he can find a playmate/pick something up/pull ahead/etc. He is..somewhat okay on actual walks, but is CONSTANTLY distracted in class. This has been an issue from day one.

Well, what I would do it shorten the length you're asking him to heel. If you can go 10 steps before he starts to wander, go 9 for awhile. When he does that for several days without wandering, add a couple of steps. And at the end praise, praise, praise and if you use treats give a treat. Also, once he's done that right about three times no more heeling for that session. Corgis don't like to drill.

After taking Mac from me last night and trying to correct him, the trainer outright told me to get him a prong collar because he needed stronger correction. Now, I understand that these generally have a bad rap and aren't as cruel as some would have us believe, but... on a Corgi?

Prong collars have their place and yes, even on corgis. But IMO, Mac doesn't sound like he's one who needs one. For a very strong willed dog, or one that's pulling your arm out of your socket maybe. I'd not use one on a puppy.

I was far less than pleased with the suggestion, and I'm not sure that Mac needs such a strong correction (although I will admit that the correction his training collar provides doesn't seem to be helping him get the picture).

Go back to the "show me" stage. What I was taught and what I do is put the dog at my side. My left arm is down straight and inflexable. Leash is gathered up very short. The dog has no choice but to heel, there is no place else to go. This way I show them where they should be.

It's never wrong to go back a step in training and reteach or reinforce the lesson. That's what you'd be doing here and what I recommend.

Jess agreed with me and says Mac is just a puppy and can't be expected to heel very well at this point in time.

I agree there too.

To make matters worse, I'm starting to see other problems with this trainer come out of the woodwork as we move up to more advanced classes with Mac. She has said in no uncertain terms that she just doesn't plain like Corgis because she thinks they're stubborn and dominant.

IMO, you should be looking for a new trainer. This is not the trainer to be working with with a corgi.

(Now, Corgi can be these things...but I'm paying you good money to help train my dog! I could bring a wolf in and it would still be your job to tell me what a cute, well-behaved, civilized little pup he is.)

I disagree, it's not her job to tell you he's cute, well behaved or chvilized. It's her job to show you how to train him and make him into a well behaved, civilized dog. She doesn't have to think he's cute or tell you that.

She is therefore convinced that Mac's floor-sniffing and wandering are signs of dominance rather than disinterest or distraction. We just seem to be interpreting the motivation for Mac's behavior very differently...

He's a puppy and he's doing puppy things, but yes, she's seeing it differently because of her view of corgis. And IMO, she's not going to change so she's most likely not the person you want to be working with.

I am thinking of find a new place to take Mac to class after this class ends; next on our list is official preparation for the CGC/TDI test.

And if things get worse or she insists on corrections or methods you don't agree with then stop going to class now, cut your losses and do what's best for your dog. If you do things you don't feel right about you could be sorry down the road or even worse, make your dog not like obedience or classes.

There is another local training facility near is that comes recommend by our vet:

Go there and watch some classes and see what you think. Talk with the instructor about corgis and if you feel comfortable then go there.

Right now I'm thinking that, since we've already paid for the remaining six weeks of Mac's current class, I call in a couple of weeks to this other place to find out when their next CGC prep class starts.

Don't feel locked in because of the money. Yes, you might lose the money for the remaining classes, but if it's in your dogs best intrest to stop going there then do what's best for him.

I don't think a puppy needs a prong collar, or maybe I should say not many puppies would. You've never said anything about Mac that would lead me to belive he's one that would. So no I'd not be getting the prong collar. Do what YOUR gut tells you to do. And if you don't have the right feeling then that's not what you should be doing.

Peggy

[Bobbie]

I'm with Peggy on this one- wrong teacher, wrong class and if you have to, get out of it.

[Lauren]

I would probably leave the class if I was you.
How old is Mac again?
Are you working on an obedience heel or loose leash walking?

[sutulu]

I truly sympathize. Tuck seemed to heel well in basic puppy obedience class. He enjoyed going because he got to rough house w/ a Lab before and after class. It was as if that was his reward.

When we got to the next level and his buddy wasn;t there, he wanted out. He'd watch the door, he didn't even look at me for a big part of the first half year. As the instructor observed, his eyes were everywhere but on me.

Persistance and time has changed that a lot.

I agree that looking for another instructor/training situation is probably a good idea.

For what it's worth, we dropped out of Obedience class for a while and focused on Agility at about age one. That too made a big difference when we went back to obedience. He clearly enjoys agility ore than obedience but is doing much better after a layoff.

[Kassie]

I don't think. I'd go back to that class. Sounds like the trainer has pegged Corgis in her mind so it's not going to be a positive experience for either of you. You don't need that.

[LaRositaMonita]

I would probably leave the class if I was you.
How old is Mac again?
Are you working on an obedience heel or loose leash walking?

Mac is 8 months old. We're working on heeling on-leash at my left side.

[The Chipmunk's Mom]

When I took my Chipmunks to obedience class, our instructor first taught us to teach the watch which I am sure you know. Then when heeling time came, I would hold a treat in my hand as we heeled and it worked wonderful. The first time I did it with Dale, the instructor asked me if I had been working with him for awhile. He heeled perfectly. Patience in my two were at a minimum so I would walk a little way, give them a treat, praise and keep heeling. I would definitely find another instructor.

[2CrazyCorgis]

I think you should find another instructor. The fact that she lets you know she doesn't like Corgis is a big red flag in my book (not to mention a serious character flaw!) It sounds like more positive reinforcement type training would be a better fit, especially for a puppy. When you practice at home I find it better to work in short "commercial break" segments. I try to stop before Bella wants to stop. She doesn't do well with a lot of repetition and that seems pretty typical with Corgis.

Good Luck

[manymuddypaws]

You should go elsewhere. Really. Sounds like the instructor has it in her head what type of personality your dog has- and isn't willing to change her methods.

There are WAY MORE FUN ways to teach heeling. I have a handout from my puppy class that I can send you in an email- let me know if you want it. Basically for young dogs and puppies I teach a "choose to heel" method. We also do "Puppy Steps" For a puppy three months old we expect them to be able to be attentive for three steps. For a puppy five months old we expect them to be attentive for five. and so on. And by attentive I mean looking at you, walking beside you. We get this really quickly with the "choose to heel" method.
Also with any dog- especially a corgi there has to be the right motivation- it is unfair to expect the dog to do it to make you happy. Dogs will work better, and learn faster if there is something in it for them. This doesn't mean you have to lure your puppy around- but be consistent with how you reward, vary what you reward with and keep training sessions short!!! If you want more help, or would like the handout you can email me at manymuddypaws@yahoo.com

Good Luck- but I am sure that you can find a better trainer in your area!

[LaRositaMonita]

E-mail sent, Amanda :)

[MrsGrace]

(Now, Corgi can be these things...but I'm paying you good money to help train my dog! I could bring a wolf in and it would still be your job to tell me what a cute, well-behaved, civilized little pup he is.)

Peggy is right in that you aren't paying them to think your dog is cute. I think what you were trying to say Heather is she should be a positive motivator, as you thought she was from your Puppy Kindergarten experience. And now you're finding her training methods might not be the positive training you saw before, she doesn't like corgis in general, but you're paying her money to train a dog, regardless of breed. Not complain about them.

I think it's time to find a new trainer.

[LaRositaMonita]

Peggy is right in that you aren't paying them to think your dog is cute. I think what you were trying to say Heather is she should be a positive motivator, as you thought she was from your Puppy Kindergarten experience. And now you're finding her training methods might not be the positive training you saw before, she doesn't like corgis in general, but you're paying her money to train a dog, regardless of breed. Not complain about them..

Exactly. I didn't mean it to say that I don't want constructive criticism...just that I'm happy I bought a Corgi. Mac is just right for me. She's told Colin and I before that she doesn't think a Corgi is a good dog for a "first-time dog owner." Well, neither of us is actually a first-time owner, and a lot of work went into getting Mac. He's all we wanted in a puppy and more.

As a teacher, I would never tell a parent I didn't like their kid. I can tell a parent I think their kid is unfocused, disorganized, lacks attention to details, can be a behavior problem, needs to brush up on study skills or basic math facts or whatever. I'm very careful in how I say things, though, and I ALWAYS tell parents that their kids are great and a pleasure to teach, regardless of what I really think!
I would expect the same from a dog trainer. That's just politeness ;)

[mtoy]

You already got so much good advice and I don't want to go on repeating stuff, so I won't. But just out of experience, I would say to quit the class. I had Millie in a class that was not for her and I think it gave her an attitude. It was a correction based class and lots of dogs were on prong collars. Heck, Millie was such a softie she only needed the whisper of the word "treat" to do what was asked. It was the wrong place for her and I've regretted it ever since. Quitting isn't wasting money, it's a learning experience just like a successful class.

Mac sounds like Link - a case of Puppy ADD? Link will heel if I keep a treat at my knee and even sometimes without the treat if we're on our way home after a long walk and he got all his puppy energy spent.

[LaRositaMonita]

You already got so much good advice and I don't want to go on repeating stuff, so I won't. But just out of experience, I would say to quit the class. I had Millie in a class that was not for her and I think it gave her an attitude. It was a correction based class and lots of dogs were on prong collars. Heck, Millie was such a softie she only needed the whisper of the word "treat" to do what was asked. It was the wrong place for her and I've regretted it ever since. Quitting isn't wasting money, it's a learning experience just like a successful class.

Mac sounds like Link - a case of Puppy ADD? Link will heel if I keep a treat at my knee and even sometimes without the treat if we're on our way home after a long walk and he got all his puppy energy spent.

Mac definitely needs more than a whisper to listen...but as a teacher who knows that beating a kid over the head (figuratively!) with punishments doesn't work as well as positive reinforcement...I just don't like the idea of going too hard on the negative. I think, for now, we'll tough the class out if we can. I have intention of buying the prong, and if the trainer feels comfortable with, "Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I'd rather not," then we can pull him and look elsewhere. In the meantime... I'll call the other place in a couple of weeks to see when their next CGC class is starting.

[MVons]

Mac sounds like Link - a case of Puppy ADD? Link will heel if I keep a treat at my knee and even sometimes without the treat if we're on our way home after a long walk and he got all his puppy energy spent.So that is what I need for Chester, a treat dispenser on my knee!

We took a break from treats because he was sitting waiting for/demanding a treat after going 5 steps. Of course I have a strong arm now and today we started occasional treats. But with gloves it takes me a while to get a little food kernel out for him.

I vote for stopping class right now. My brother had the similar problem with a trainer and his mastiff and in hind sight he wished he had changed trainers immediately.

I am so glad you have more choices of trainers to consider - go find a good one! You and Mac deserve it.


And a side note of our available one day of training here - it was to be a lecture and my dog had to be in a kennel in the car if the trainer wasn't working with him. Well I can rent a video for a lecture, no thanks. sigh

Thank you for this post, I don't feel alone with my frustrating times with Chester. The squirrels are very active right now and heeling can be impossible. The weird robins on the ground (shouldn't they be gone now?) were hard to get Chester to get past. And just the rush to get to school makes it harder to train enroute vs the return trip. But the successes make it all worth it.

[taflar]

Exactly. I didn't mean it to say that I don't want constructive criticism...just that I'm happy I bought a Corgi. Mac is just right for me. She's told Colin and I before that she doesn't think a Corgi is a good dog for a "first-time dog owner." Well, neither of us is actually a first-time owner, and a lot of work went into getting Mac. He's all we wanted in a puppy and more.

I didn't think you meant it that way either. ;)

As a teacher, I would never tell a parent I didn't like their kid. I can tell a parent I think their kid is unfocused, disorganized, lacks attention to details, can be a behavior problem, needs to brush up on study skills or basic math facts or whatever. I'm very careful in how I say things, though, and I ALWAYS tell parents that their kids are great and a pleasure to teach, regardless of what I really think!
I would expect the same from a dog trainer. That's just politeness ;)

I agree with you. She doesn't have to like your dog or think he's cute, but she also doesn't need to tell you that. And yes, she does need to have a more than one size fits all training method and not judge all dogs of a breed the same way.

I do agree that I also don't think corgis are for first time dog owners. However, some do ok and work at becoming good owners. Corgis can be trying, they get bored easy, they like to push the limits and test the boundries. They don't like to drill or repeat an exercise over and over. (About three times is enough.) And yet, each dog is a little bit different, and a trainer has to know that and adjust for each dog.

It's one thing to share her experience with corgis, as for them being demanding or pushy. But it is not ok to assume they are ALL that way, because like with everything in life there are always exceptions to the rule.

You know I often think dogs live up to our expectations. She expects the corgis in her classes to be problems and so they are. It could very well be they are behaving exactly how she expects them too. If she'd change her attitude I'd bet she'd see corgis responding better.

I'd look for a class with an instructor with a more open mind.

Peggy

[The Chipmunk's Mom]

How do those prong collars work? I have seen them in stores but never have used one.

[disraeli ears]

As a teacher, I would never tell a parent I didn't like their kid. I can tell a parent I think their kid is unfocused, disorganized, lacks attention to details, can be a behavior problem, needs to brush up on study skills or basic math facts or whatever. I'm very careful in how I say things, though, and I ALWAYS tell parents that their kids are great and a pleasure to teach, regardless of what I really think!
I would expect the same from a dog trainer. That's just politeness ;)

I was just going to say the very same thing. Pardon my French, but that instructor is a b****! :MAD: I would never want to work with someone who just flat out said that they don't like my dog's breed. She is being PAID good money to train your dog - not question your choice or put down your breed. Because she has this bias against Corgis, you automatically know that she is not going to put 100% into her job with Mac.

Mac, by the way, does not seem dominant in the least. He was very submissive with Jackie and Rhys - he just seems like a puppy, quite distracted in class.

And I don't know WHO in their RIGHT MIND would not love Macintosh!! +SPIN+

[Bobbie]

How do those prong collars work? I have seen them in stores but never have used one.

They have rather blunt prongs that, when the collar is tightened, poke into the neck. They don't really hurt if you put one on your arm and tighten it, and they do usually keep the dog from pulling. But they aren't training so much as managing collars. The dog doesn't learn not to pull or lunge, he just won't do it when the collar is on. I don't think they are inhumane but I think they are a crutch and should not be used in training unless positive methods have been exhausted.

[taflar]

How do those prong collars work? I have seen them in stores but never have used one.

They work by pinching. Also called a pinch collar.

Like with other things this is a training [B]tool[/B. There is a time and place to use them and they can help with training if used properly. Some people don't ever use them properly and they become a crutch, meaning the dog will only behave when wearing the collar so they use it whenever they put the dog on leash. That is not the way it's meant to be used.

I have never used one but would not rule it out. It depends on the dog.

Peggy

[LaRositaMonita]

They have rather blunt prongs that, when the collar is tightened, poke into the neck. They don't really hurt if you put one on your arm and tighten it, and they do usually keep the dog from pulling. But they aren't training so much as managing collars. The dog doesn't learn not to pull or lunge, he just won't do it when the collar is on. I don't think they are inhumane but I think they are a crutch and should not be used in training unless positive methods have been exhausted.

WELL SAID, Bobbie...better than I have been able to articulate to Colin!! Can I have your permission to use this statement as leverage if our trainer keeps insisting? ;)

[The Chipmunk's Mom]

Thanks Bobbie for your reply. It kind of reminds me of the aluminum pie pan the instructor used in class for dogs that kept jumping up on people and instructed people to use it on their dogs if they wished too. Basically it is tunging them on the head with it and the noise scares them and they go back down on four feet. Chip never can stay on his four feet when greeting me so needless to say, it was never used on him. :ROLLEYES

[Merlincorgi]

I have used a pinch collar once. I had a 100lb mastiff/boxer type mix that was a rescue (okay... I call him a rescue because he was at the shelter and they were taking him to be put down so I adopted him, knowing I would rehome him, because he was too special to be put to sleep...)

He was a young dog.. one year at the most and had a lot of energy and not much if any prior training so you can understand that translated into a lot of leash pulling that was hard to control due to his size. I tried a training (aka choke) collar first but it had no effect.. he just ignored the corrections from it. So.. I tried the prong (pinch) collar. Within a week he was walking like a gentleman and I moved him back to a plain flat collar. I never had to use the prong again and we had him for about 6 months before finding a suitable home. Prongs, like a lot of training tools, have their place if they are used properly....

That being said, I would not think of using it on a headstrong puppy that just wants to sniff.... other (better) options should be tried frist.

[Bobbie]

WELL SAID, Bobbie...better than I have been able to articulate to Colin!! Can I have your permission to use this statement as leverage if our trainer keeps insisting? ;)

I don't think you should even argue. Just do what you want to do and ignore the instructor if you don't want to leave the class. Thats what I have had to do on occasion with an agility instructor wanting my dogs to stop at the bottom of the A-frame- that or just say, no, mine don't do that. You CAN train dogs the way this instructor wants to- most of us older folk grew up doing it that way- but there are much better ways that produce happier-working dogs.

Bobbie

[manymuddypaws]

For those of you interested I posted a version of my handout for heeling on my blog.
and for those who already looked I uploaded a video of Vito learning to heel.....

[Fluffypants]

Thanks Amanda, that was great! +TUP+