Rhy's Behavior Plan

[disraeli ears]

I have a confession: Rhys has a possession/aggression issue. I have talked to Deb about this (and to Delta a bit as well). Deb helped me to find a couple of dog behaviorists in my area (there are TWO!) and Rhys has an appointment with one of them on Thursday the 31st.

He has recently gotten bad about growling/snapping at me when I want to take things away from him (this is his "trigger"). I tried to take a rawhide bone from him this past weekend (I was trying to "trade" one treat for another - bad idea) and he bit me hard on the right arm. That is why I was having such a bad weekend. +SAD+

I was afraid to say anything because I don't want people to think he's a BAD dog - he's not. Those who have met him know that he has many good qualities (which outweigh the bad), but he has this little Mr. Hyde thing when it comes to somebody trying to take away a valuable. Other than that, he's a great, friendly, outgoing guy.

And that is why I want him to see a behaviorist. I love him too much to see him do this and I don't want me (or God forbid, anyone else!) to get hurt.

I am assuming that our plan will be somewhat similar to Rupe's plan. Wish us luck - cause we'll need it. :BIGGRIN"

[CorgiMum]

{{{{Tana & Rhys}}}

Thank you so much for trusting us here by sharing your situation and plans for Rhys with us.

Some of us have easier dogs than others but we love them no less and they are no less worthy.

Some dogs need to be 'managed', all their lives, as has been the case with my Montrose do to her touch issues. No one here should be afraid to share, because the support that others have to give can help a lot.

Please keep us posted, you and your boy are being sent a ton of vibes from our BC corgi family.

[Fluffypants]

Good luck Tana! I'm sure you will be able to work this out with a behaviorist's / trainer's help. Rhys is a great little guy, and you are absolutely doing the right thing for him.

Sorry to hear about what happened last weekend. I'm sure the emotional pain to being bitten was way worse than the physical pain (though that was probably pretty bad too). +FUZZHUG+

Jackie is sending her honey some extra lovin' today. +LUB+

[Akatihsa]

Good Luck! I hope that everything turns out well for you. I think that the amount of support we have on this forum is amazing! It's really great that you were willing to share your story with us.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Mucho Mojo luck being sent out to you Tana. (And not a bad dog, just a bad problem, and that can be corrected or handled. Think positive, I am. Failure is NOT an option!)

[Jespah]

Tana - I'm so proud of you for putting your situation out there - good for you - it will help you by getting support, and it will help others to learn and to not be afraid to get help if they need it.

I also want to say how proud I am of the people on this site who support each other through all kinds of things but really step up to the plate on these crucial issues. This membership rocks!!!!! +UROCK+

[manymuddypaws]

Good Luck!!! keep us posted on how he is doing!

[dcole]

Good luck, Tana! And thank you for sharing. Between you and Deb sharing your situations, it makes the rest of us feel more comfortable speaking out about our dog's potential problems and/or seeking help. +WUBCLUB+

[MVons]

He has recently gotten bad about growling/snapping at me when I want to take things away from him (this is his "trigger"). I tried to take a rawhide bone from him this past weekend (I was trying to "trade" one treat for another - bad idea) and he bit me hard on the right arm. That is why I was having such a bad weekend. +SAD+

I was afraid to say anything because I don't want people to think he's a BAD dog - he's not. Those who have met him know that he has many good qualities (which outweigh the bad), but he has this little Mr. Hyde thing when it comes to somebody trying to take away a valuable. Other than that, he's a great, friendly, outgoing guy.Oh Tana, you aren't alone. Chester has possessive problem and in public you would never know that about him. They aren't bad dogs, they are wonderful dogs with a bad quirk or habit.

Luckily having three people in the home, my personality can deal with Chester. Chester's lip will raise and I will talk baby talk and offer him another toy. I explained to my hubby that I had done the yelling, scolding, crating and those didn't work with Chester's personality. Hubby was blown away when Chester bit him this week as he usually is aggressive to Erec. I showed hubby how I talk to Chester and I took the toy and showed Chester I was going to put it in his crate. Chester just gets fixated when he can hold two toys in his mouth. For Erec he just rattles the snack bag and Chester drops and leaves both toys. It is interesting to see Chester didn't do that with hubby because hubby wasn't the one with the snacks. These dogs are so smart. Chester is less possessive when he has had extra exercise - hard to do when the streets are icy this week.

I just realized I'm the one who give Chester the new toys. Next box, hubby and Erec will have to do the giving out. If I hadn't typed this post and re-read I wouldn't have thought of this. Now I feel like Chester is smarter than me, sigh.

I'm so glad you are able to find people to work with Rhys. Here we would have to drive too dang far but of course would be forced to if Chester got worse.

[ZdogZ]

Good luck, Tana, and thanks for sharing with us. I hope that you will keep us updated on how he does on his new plan. Sending lots of vibes to you, Rhys, Deb, and Rupert.

[glencorgi]

Congratulations and a big round of applause for you. Like Deb, you've shown a lot of strength and courage. :)

Debbie

[corgiland]

The best of luck with Rhys, Tana.....sending lots of vibes your way...

[Fluffypants]

Good luck today Tana & Rhys!!!+WUBCLUB+

[bunnybutts]

Tana,

Hope you had a productive meeting with the behaviorist 2day! It is very good of you to share Rhy's problem so others will feel comfy talking about a problem they may have too!

Hope your arm is better - take care...

[CorgiMum]

Fingers & paws crossed that all went well for you and Rhys Tana.

[Jespah]

I've been thinking of you today Tana - I know you can help Rhys!

[disraeli ears]

Well, I would say that our visit to the behaviorist today went very well - thank you all.

Basically, I learned some stuff that was completely at odds with what I had learned about traditional dog training. Dr. Meyer recommended (and I bought) The Culture Clash. A copy was sitting on the table in the training room while I was waiting for our appointment to start. I read several pages and was shocked :SHOCKED: at a couple of things she pointed out! Wow!

Basically, the appointment was mostly a dialogue between me and her - about Rhys's various incidents and triggers, etc. While he was loose in the room, I was supposed to ignore him - she, however, would periodically draw his attention away from the myriad toys and stuff by using the "touch" (sometimes called "target" command), which he basically learned immediately. I was, of course, beaming with pride when she commented (several times) about how bright he is. :WINK:

I basically learned that Rhys...thinks I'm a pathological thief. :BIGLAUGH: I steal stuff that I HAVE GIVEN HIM and then don't give it back. Why should he release the stuff? She said, "Even the alpha dog in a pack doesn't steal food out of the mouth of the omega." Which makes sense. So what I have to do is teach him re-direction behavior, which will allow him to eventually (hopefully) drop even cherished objects because he knows that - if he drops it - he gets a treat AND he gets the object back. So if I do this 10 times a day, 70 times a week, 280 times a month...the one time in 6 months when I HAVE to take something and not give it back, he'll still realize the odds are in his favor. That's sort of the simplistic explanation.

He didn't need a Gentle Leader, but I did get him an Easy Walk Harness - which immediately made a difference in his pulling! And he didn't need any meds because, as the doctor pointed out, his aggressive behavior is predictable and set off by certain triggers; most of the time he is a happy-go-lucky dog. And she also said that the fact that he is a "warner" (means he growls as a warning before he ever goes for a bite - she said it means that he only goes for the bite as a last resort) is a good thing. He just got some meds for his storm phobia - acerpromazine, I think?

So, all in all, I learned some very new things about the way my dog thinks and the way I relate to him...very good! +GWAVE+ And the changes are a lot easier than I was expecting!!

Thanks for all your support - we are so glad to have ya'll! +GHUG+

[ZdogZ]

Glad that your first visit was positive! You and Rhys will do great!

[taflar]

He just got some meds for his storm phobia - acerpromazine, I think?

So, all in all, I learned some very new things about the way my dog thinks and the way I relate to him...very good! +GWAVE+ And the changes are a lot easier than I was expecting!!

Thanks for all your support - we are so glad to have ya'll! +GHUG+

Acepromazine (no r in it). It's a sedative and will make him relaxed and sleepy. I've used it w/some of my dogs for various reasons.

The information you got sounds very intresting. Glad the changes are easier than expected, that will make it easier for you to follow through. :)

Sounds like you've got a plan to work with now and get started on redirecting his behavior.

Peggy

[Kassie]

Sounds like it is going well! Good luck.

[MaxiMomus]

I am so glad that you and Rhys had a good evaluation at the behaviorist. Sould like you have a great plan and following that plan will have great results. I know that you and Rhys will do great.

[CorgiMum]

What wonderful news for the both of you!+APPLAUSE+

So glad that things went well today and that you and Rhys have a plan to follow.

[Jespah]

Hooray for you Tana! I bet you've had a huge weight lifted off your shoulders in one sense, but like me, now know that your dog's success is totally in your hands. It sounds like you can do that - not too hard and you also spend quality time with him. I'm so thrilled for you - make sure you post how things are going and let us know. I too have been reading Culture Clash - very good reading for all owners.

Good luck - I know you can do it!!!

Deb

[corgiland]

Glad to hear that the appointment went well today, Tana......good luck with everything.....thanks for posting.

[Jaxerspal]

First off, I'd like to also extend my best wishes to both Rupert and Rhys and their families. I've been reading with great interest about these aggression issues and I've got a couple of questions. Having just recently tuned in here, I may have missed something posted earlier, so please forgive me if I cover old ground.

I'm curious about how did these issues first manifest themselves and what were the first signs of the behaviour going south. I recall Deb saying it's something she believes Rupes alway had and always will. Do you think it's just how the pups are 'wired up" or was the change caused by something environmental or influenced by a specific event? Is there something we could be watching for or doing differently, especially in training new pups? As some of you may know, I'd like to get another cardi, but I'm really concerned about how a puppy will change Jax, if at all. He's about 5 1/2 and I got him when he was about 1 1/2, so I missed his puppy training/issues. What are anyone's thoughts on this. Thanks

Sue

[Dillydoodle]

Tana, I am really glad that the visit went so well, I am also fascinated by the information you learned and now that i think about it from the dog's point of view, it makes perfect sense. I have never had issues with Dillon with toys but have gotten a lip curl several times while taking away a prized bone or lifting his food dish mid meal... this behavior i have seen immediately put me in gear to work with Dillon on these things as i do not want to have a time where i need to take something away and can't . So I am going to do the same thing you are doing for rhys working with dillon so he knows that the "odds are in his favor" about getting the cherished item back...

Just as an added note, this behavior was non existent in Dillon before we got Gus, but now he feels there may be competition so the rules have changed a bit for him, and i have seen the lip curl a few times and the growl once towards Gus when he has gotten too close to him while enjoying a prized item ( always food related - there is none of this when it comes to toys).

I may just grab that book for a fun and informative read... Give Rhys a big hug and It sounds like you are on the right track here, congrats for a good session..

Emilie

[Jespah]

I'm curious about how did these issues first manifest themselves and what were the first signs of the behaviour going south. I recall Deb saying it's something she believes Rupes alway had and always will. Do you think it's just how the pups are 'wired up" or was the change caused by something environmental or influenced by a specific event? Is there something we could be watching for or doing differently, especially in training new pups? As some of you may know, I'd like to get another cardi, but I'm really concerned about how a puppy will change Jax, if at all. He's about 5 1/2 and I got him when he was about 1 1/2, so I missed his puppy training/issues. What are anyone's thoughts on this. Thanks
Sue

Thanks for your support Sue.

For Rupert, he was exhibiting signs of fear aggression to other dogs as a pup. I did not know that's what it was at the time, but I can tell you he was extremely well socialized with dogs and people and I did everything right. Rupert would submit to a new dog, roll over and let the dog sniff him and then, if it went on a little too long, he would leap up barking at the dog. It progressed to snapping and chasing if he could. So, he's afraid, but he submits and wants to be friends but then it gets to be too much so he reacts with aggression to increase the space between himself and the other dog. It's a very simple thing we all experience - when in a perceived dangerous situation we have a choice of flight or fight. Rupert's choice is "fight".

I have been doing a lot of research and reading on this subject and have read that pups whose mother is fearful can pick it up from birth essentially. I was getting reports on Rupert's personality from 5 weeks and up until the very last he was apparantly a mama's boy and didn't like to leave her go to people or his siblings if they were being taken out away from the mother. When I got there to pick him up, the breeder told me had changed and in fact was a social butterfly - he came right to me and played with me and was very friendly.

So, it's a tough call - I'd say do some reading so you know what you could be up against. Rupert did very well with Jemma when she came and he adores her - he has no fear of her - his issues with her are when she steals his stuff and he doesn't want to share - possessive aggression.

I hope that helps Sue, I'm always happy to PM or answer things "offline" as it were. I also recommend reading "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.

Deb

[disraeli ears]

Thanks, all!

To Sue: I first noticed this behavior in Rhys as a puppy - when he was about 5 months old, I tried to take a Greenie away and he snapped at me. So, for Rhys, it is hard-wired so to speak. He is not a submissive dog - he is a typical bold, assertive little Corgi and does not "back down" when challenged.

The behaviorist explained that, naturally, not all dogs are like this. Andy, his littermate, is MUCH more submissive and would never growl or snap if I tried to take something out of her mouth. (FYI: Andy did not come to live with us until she and Rhys were a year old - her presence made no difference in his behavior.)

Now, if I had recognized Rhys's issues when he was a puppy, it may never have escalated to the point to which it did. BUT...based on my sort of old-fashioned knowledge of dog training, I may not have been able to fix the problem that well.

There can also be this kind of issue when there is an environmental change or a biological change. As the behaviorist said, if Rhys had never acted this way and if he were, say, 6 years old and started manifesting this behavior, she would definitely have looked for a biological basis. Now, it sounds as if Emily's issue with Dillon is completely environmental - suddenly, he has another dog who can potentially steal his food; as I am not a behaviorist, I cannot diagnose but I would GUESS that Gus's presence made the difference. So Emily can start working now. (And Emily - I would definitely read Culture Clash - just the first chapter will shock you!)

That's my armchair dog psychologist opinion for you. :WINK:

[Fluffypants]

I'm so glad to hear that your appointment went well Tana! Sounds like Rhys's behavior is totally manageable, and I know you will do a great job! It's going to make such a difference in your relationship with him. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!!!! +CLAPPING+

[Jaxerspal]

Thanks, I'll definitely get my hands on that book! Jax's only real problem is that he ahs never been able to warm up to my brother. When I got him he was fearful of men, particularly those between late teen and mid fifties, and especially if they had a ball cap. I suspect a strong environmental influence from what I saw when I picked him up. He's since gotten much better with all men as I take him with me whenever practical. Yet still after 4 years, John is just overwhelming for Jax, and he barks like crazy when he arrives, though not showing teeth or seriously growling. Part of the problem is John only is around for 1 or 2 days a month, and he's about the same size and age as his former owner. Eventually he will come over to John and give him sniff or two and of course treats help. I'm wondering what I can do to help, and it sounds like I might get some insight with that book. Again thanks for everyone's input and best wishes for good results for all of our pups.

[Kassie]

It is amazing what dogs carry in their memories sometimes. With our last dogs, our female especially was not overly fond of men, but got quite good with a few she knew quite well, and tollerated most others. Once a friend of my daughters was over and working on her car, and when he came in Megan chased him down the hall where he jumped the doggy gate. He smelled like a car and Joni remembered that as a pup (quite young) she had taken her most severe dislike to her sisters husband, who was an auto mechanic. And some people say they have no memories of things past.....

[glencorgi]

And some people say they have no memories of things past.....

Oh I know some corgis with very loooooong memories.:WINK:

Debbie

[MVons]

Thanks for posting Tana. It helps me see we need to continue to work with Chester on giving back. Let's see I took the new fire hose toy and trimmed the threads 5 times before I couldn't give it back and it had to go into the trash. Hope the 5 times helped the final goodbye. I will put in a request for the book from the library.

[MVons]

What did you think of the "Culture Clash" book? The Amazon reviews made me hesitate on buying as I do like an organized book to read or I won't finish it. I guess I'll read the books I have before I get another one. If anyone could recommend which one to read first, please do so: "Parenting your Dog" by Trish King, "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier, "Positive Perspectives" by Pat Miller, "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller. Keep in mind I have a similar problem with Chester on the possessive over coveted items, ie-toilet paper roll.

[Jespah]

Culture Clash is more the understanding of dog behaviour, Merrie - are you looking for something to help train or with exercises for training?

Deb

[Jespah]

Tana - how is Rhys doing with his training?