Rheumatoid arthritis, maybe neutered to early?

[~WelshStump~]

I have a 7 year old Pembroke, named Jinjo. Last year around his birthday in November, we took him to the vet for what was a mild limp. I was not impressed by the tech we saw that day (or the one the time before for that matter), she shuffled use into the exam room and rushed right through and said "its just arthritis give him G/C supplements and it'll get better."

So, little over a month ago the limp suddenly became worse, more like REALLY BAD. We first though about trying to get him into the vet collage up here, but the soonest they could get him in was march! To top it off, I found a lump on that leg. So we called his vet and they got us in right away. I really liked the vet we saw this last time MUCH better. She took her time, and looked him over from top to bottom. After a lot of looking however she was puzzled and all she could say was "he's aging WAY to rapidly, this is not normal." She took a sample of from the lump, it was just a Lipoma so that isn't the problem.

After some more staring, she said its extremely rare but it "could" be rheumatoid arthritis. After that, we talked about Lyme disease. He did as a pup with another vet give 2 shots. That vet told use it was all that was ever needed. I'm glad we left them, our vet said its an every year thing. So we had her test him, and it was negative.

After all that, we still don't know 100% what his true problem is, but it does seem to be "An" arthritis, of what type is to be determined (hopefully) next month with X-rays. Until then, the vet gave us an NSAID to give him called Zubrin.

So, along with all that, What I want to ask from you guys is this: What is the rate of "rheumatoid arthritis" in corgwn? Also, I read in the newest Dog World (didn't buy it but will later) about a new study linking early neuter's with structural problem. Getting Jinjo neutered at around 4 months, you think that might have something to do with it?

[Jespah]

I'm sure you've done lots of research on the web on the possibility of his condition being RA. It appears to be a rare condition, but not unseen in dogs.

Personally, if it were my dog, I would be getting to a university or college vet clinic/hospital where they would potentially have some experience or at least the resources to properly test and investigate the problem. I wish I could offer you more info or help.

I would think that anything that affects the joints would benefit from keeping his weight down as best you can (I'm not saying he is overweight :SMILE:). Having arthritis in my knees myself, I know how helpful that was to me. As, he would have to be rested, you would have to try and keep his weight down with diet mainly.

Deb

[~WelshStump~]

As I said, we did call the local Vet collage, but the soonest they could get him in was not till like the 2-3 week of march! (this was about 2 weeks ago) Because the lump was too big a concern was why we then made an appointment with his regular vet, and she said that X-rays would be the best way to start. He has to go back to his vet in march for 3 year vac's so we're scheduling for then for the X-rays.

And no, make all the fat jokes you want to cause that is what he is! Errr, I've been fighting with his weight since he was a puppy, as he not only seem to have problems with extra weight gain, but the list also includes: Allergies, sensitive stomach, IBD, and "the winds." Its been pretty much impossible to find ANY diet that suits him 100%, about the closest we've come is right now with about 70% satisfactory. He's eating a mix of Canidae platinum and Natural ultramix. I only give him the ultramix, because on Canidae along it was giving he monster gas! After giving him a sample bag of the ultramix from Petco, it took the gas away so I'm feeding it to him till this Canidae is gone then I'm going to try something else.

Also, I have horrid knees as well. Blame my father! There not always "that" bad, but its not fun when suddenly, I CAN'T GET UP!

[Kassie]

I'm with Deb on the vote to try to see someone at the university clinic. They are the best resource when something is unusual as our vet is quick to say. We had to go the NSAID route with our last dog, but she was much older. Good luck and keep us posted!

[Jespah]

I'm not making fat jokes - no worries there - it's a real issue for most Corgis, and we all feed and exercise to try and help them keep the weight off. We've had a few good discussions here on feeding recently, so do a search and join in those threads if you like.

I'm sure you were concerned with the lump firstly, but I would still book the appointment at the college to take the testing further.

Deb

[~WelshStump~]

Once we get some X-rays done, if we don't find anything definitive, we will be off to the Vet collage. I am a little disappointed with them though from the past, but I wont get into the horrid episode here. I know that from past experience that we can get into them much sooner if we have a referral from his vet.
Well, I'll go look through the nutrition section now, I do have a few foods in mind that I'd like to try out so I'll see if anyone as used them here. Oh, and Jinjo is overall big for the breed, but about what weight would you guys recomend for 14"?

[Jespah]

It's not so much a weight that would be recommended as much as whether you can easily feel his ribs. That's the best indicator, as height, length and bone structure can really be variables. If you can easily feel his ribs under his skin - not see them, then he should be fine.

[Merlincorgi]

Okay. My two year old tri-color named Checkers has the same type of limp. I got him in to a doggy orthopedic specialist who really seems to know her stuff. After looking at x-rays he has been diagnosed with osteo-arthritis so I would ask your vet to consider this a possibility. She started him immediately on a series of shots called Adequan (not sure I spelled that right, but it's close). Initially it is a series of two shots a week for 6 weeks, but after that it is one shot every 6 months. She said this drug is only thing actually proven to lessen or stop the advance of osteo-arthritis. There is no cure, but if you get him on the right treatment you might be able to help manage it... and the sooner the better, of course. We're about 4 months out from that initial treatment and there is some improvement. He is still stiff first thing in the morning, and sometimes that pesky limp still plagues him after he's been particuarly active, but it doesn't seem to progressing. Eventually (when we can afford it) we will add in chiropractic treatments, accupuncture or accupressure, and massage therapy... depending on which seems to work best for him.. just to lessen the daily pain he is in.

As for weight... if you want a specific number ask your vet... but to give you an estimate, Checkers is also on the larger end of the scale for Pems (he's extra long), and my vet said to keep his joints at their healthiest she didn't ever want to see him over 30lbs (he was 32lbs at that appointment and I thought that he looked great at that weight, but she wants him on the skinny side of good weight).

Best of luck and I hope I was able to give you more info for you and the vet to consider that might help.

[~WelshStump~]

Well, At his best when I had him weighed at vets early fall last year he was 36lbs and I could feel his ribs OK, but I thought he could stand to loose about 3 more lbs. Then fast forward to our last visit, and instead of loosing he gained 2lbs! I only feed him 3/4 of a cup a food twice a day, but I do think all the treats are his problem. I keep telling my father DON'T, but he does still give small hand outs. And this of coarse is also the reason why I ended up making the rule "You feed it to him, YOU clean it up!" And shortly there after the had outs stalled, but my father is back at it. Hmmm..... Really, about the only thing at this point I can think of is hydro therapy. Anyone know where to buy a doggie life jacket cheap? And a ramp for an above ground pool?

[~WelshStump~]

Okay. My two year old tri-color named Checkers has the same type of limp. I got him in to a doggy orthopedic specialist who really seems to know her stuff. After looking at x-rays he has been diagnosed with osteo-arthritis so I would ask your vet to consider this a possibility. She started him immediately on a series of shots called Adequan (not sure I spelled that right, but it's close). Initially it is a series of two shots a week for 6 weeks, but after that it is one shot every 6 months. She said this drug is only thing actually proven to lessen or stop the advance of osteo-arthritis. There is no cure, but if you get him on the right treatment you might be able to help manage it... and the sooner the better, of course. We're about 4 months out from that initial treatment and there is some improvement. He is still stiff first thing in the morning, and sometimes that pesky limp still plagues him after he's been particuarly active, but it doesn't seem to progressing. Eventually (when we can afford it) we will add in chiropractic treatments, accupuncture or accupressure, and massage therapy... depending on which seems to work best for him.. just to lessen the daily pain he is in.

As for weight... if you want a specific number ask your vet... but to give you an estimate, Checkers is also on the larger end of the scale for Pems (he's extra long), and my vet said to keep his joints at their healthiest she didn't ever want to see him over 30lbs (he was 32lbs at that appointment and I thought that he looked great at that weight, but she wants him on the skinny side of good weight).

Best of luck and I hope I was able to give you more info for you and the vet to consider that might help.

Whoops C&G, posted at the same time!

The odd thing is, a dog we just lost last summer had osteo, but how Jinjo has been acting is so much different to her, its like the opposite end of the spectrum which is why the vet first suggested rumatiod. I'm not casuling anything out at this point though, we all know better than that.

And that shot, OMG why didn't any vet suggest that to my last dog!!! And to think she suffered the way she did, the day we "took her in" we had to because she didn't stand at all the entire day. I know, new stuff will come out every day, but just to think that there might have been something out there.

[mtoy]

Anyone know where to buy a doggie life jacket cheap? And a ramp for an above ground pool?

I found a doggie life vest locally at a pet supplies shop (it's one of those VERY NOT fancy places but carries wonderful stuff at great places). It was about half of what Petsmart charges.

I saw a ramp for an above ground pool somewhere on the web but it was very spendy. We have a pool too but only a ladder going up to it and a ladder inside so it's really hard for the dogs to use. I'd like to change that.

Our 11 year old Millie has leg problems and swims very nicely, when she wants to. She's afraid of the ladder though.

[Penutsma]

A ramp should not be too hard to build. The biggest obstacle would be the angle you wanted for it. I would imagine if you couldn't afford to buy a prebuilt one, that with a hammer, nails or screwdriver and screws, scrap wood from your local Home Depot or Lowes, you could build one. It is surprising what we can do when we have to! I learned how to build cabinets because I needed to one time. It's really easier than it looks. You would need a triangle frame to support the walk board and then for safety sake, I would add wood strips every 6-8 inches running from side to side. The next great thing is that rubber stuff you can get from WalMart (kitchen area). It's a kind of shelf paper that is no skid. Glue some of that to the board between the wood strips. At the upper end of your walkboard (pool side) make a lip to put over the side of the pool on the end so that it doesn't move away from the pool.

[talksheep]

The brand of life jacket you want is "outward hound" we got one for Ein at petsmart for 15$. It is SO nice because it holds her head out of the water and is comfortable for her to wear. I would recommend it to EVERYONE!!!!!!! It has reflective strips on it and it insulates them if the water is cold, Ein likes hers and she is so cute in it!

[Penutsma]

Basic framework viewed from the top (has a platform to jump from)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r150/penutsma/FrameTopView.jpg

Basic framework (showing pool wall) from the side
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r150/penutsma/WoodRampsideview.jpg

View of top as finished product (showing pool wall)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r150/penutsma/FinishedTopView.jpg

[glencorgi]

On the weight issue, try cutting him back to 1 cup to a 1 1/4 cup total a day.
Even reducing by 1/4 can be a big help in taking off some weight. IF Dad isn't going to cooperate:WINK: on reducing treats, then you can go down to the 1 cup. To make "you" feel better - it isn't going to look like a lot of food, go to a smaller bowl. You can also add all kinds of low calorie nutritious fillers such as green beans, squash, zucchini, lettuce, canned pumpkin (plain pumpkin, not the pie filler). You might also begin keeping things like baby carrots as treats for your Dad to give.

Debbie

(Glad to see you made it! :) )

[ZdogZ]

I sure hate to hear about all of this happening with him. I hope you get some answers very soon.

[taflar]

I have a 7 year old Pembroke, named Jinjo. Last year around his birthday in November, we took him to the vet for what was a mild limp. I was not impressed by the tech we saw that day (or the one the time before for that matter), she shuffled use into the exam room and rushed right through and said "its just arthritis give him G/C supplements and it'll get better."

Well, IMO, the tech should not be diagnosing. You didn't get to see a vet?

So, little over a month ago the limp suddenly became worse, more like REALLY BAD. We first though about trying to get him into the vet collage up here, but the soonest they could get him in was march! To top it off, I found a lump on that leg. So we called his vet and they got us in right away. I really liked the vet we saw this last time MUCH better. She took her time, and looked him over from top to bottom. After a lot of looking however she was puzzled and all she could say was "he's aging WAY to rapidly, this is not normal." She took a sample of from the lump, it was just a Lipoma so that isn't the problem.

After some more staring, she said its extremely rare but it "could" be rheumatoid arthritis. After that, we talked about Lyme disease. He did as a pup with another vet give 2 shots. That vet told use it was all that was ever needed. I'm glad we left them, our vet said its an every year thing. So we had her test him, and it was negative.

After all that, we still don't know 100% what his true problem is, but it does seem to be "An" arthritis, of what type is to be determined (hopefully) next month with X-rays. Until then, the vet gave us an NSAID to give him called Zubrin.

So, along with all that, What I want to ask from you guys is this: What is the rate of "rheumatoid arthritis" in corgwn? Also, I read in the newest Dog World (didn't buy it but will later) about a new study linking early neuter's with structural problem. Getting Jinjo neutered at around 4 months, you think that might have something to do with it?

No, early neutering does not cause arthritis. And by early neutering they mean in the 8-12 week range normally.

The structure problems they're talking about is that they see in "some" dogs that they are a bit taller than normal. IMO it's not enough that people would actully notice. Such as a half inch or so.

I don't know the rate of incidence of rheumetoid arthritis in corgis. It's not very common. Arthritis is in older dogs, not just corgis. It's rare in younger dogs but not unheard of (as Cheryl can tell you).

IMO, I would go to the vet college and get a second opinion. Waiting a couple weeks would be worth it to see exactly what is wrong.

Peggy

[taflar]

And no, make all the fat jokes you want to cause that is what he is!

If he's overweight, do what you can to get that off him. That alone will help.

... but the list also includes: Allergies, sensitive stomach, IBD, and "the winds." Its been pretty much impossible to find ANY diet that suits him 100%, about the closest we've come is right now with about 70% satisfactory. He's eating a mix of Canidae platinum and Natural ultramix. I only give him the ultramix, because on Canidae along it was giving he monster gas! After giving him a sample bag of the ultramix from Petco, it took the gas away so I'm feeding it to him till this Canidae is gone then I'm going to try something else.

If he's got gas try adding Beano to his food. And I'd look for a lower protein food. Ultra anything is probably a high protein food. I'd look for something in the low 20% at the most.

I've had good experience using Nature's Recipe Vegetarian food for a dog I had with allergies. And I found it to be good for a weight loss food too. You might try that with him.

Peggy

[taflar]

Oh, and Jinjo is overall big for the breed, but about what weight would you guys recomend for 14"?

14" from the top of his shoulders to the floor? Standing natural? Without the fat pad on his shoulders if he's overweight? He sure doesn't look that big in his pictures.

I had a 13" inch Pembroke that normally weighed 35 lbs. I'd go for that range.

Peggy

[mtoy]

I guess when I said ramp I meant for the inside of the pool, so the dog can walk in and out of the water. They are removeable and float.

And yes, the Outward Hound is the jacket we have too - they are great.

[~WelshStump~]

On the life jacket I'll look into that brand and see if my Petco has if, if not we're getting a Petsmart sometime soon, the building's mostly done on the outside anyway.

Now, we have been wanting to put up a deck for our pool, but because of how old it is my parents have been contemplating other ideas (both my mother and I would LOVE an in-ground lap pool). I think if I get the life jacket, I'll just try and lift him in from the latter.

And I guess you would call the people at this vet VET'S, but because they change them out so often I just don't always feel they deserve that title I guess. Sorry for the confusion. And it's not like this is your "low quality" farm vets, if I wanted that I'd be taking Jinjo to the closer in town one our other dog saw. No, this vet came recommended by some of the top local show breeders, and one of the vets there at the time we got Jinjo had about 5 Corgi's! Not sure but I don't think he's there anymore, or just not on the days we go? But there gear is great and about the only thing they don't do that the Vet collage does is like MRI/CAT scan and soft tissue type stuff. At this point my mother still thinks he broke something, and its more then "just arthritis," so we're still on just scheduling X-rays for now to see.

Now, he does eat veggies like green beans and carrots, but I've got to get more bean's cause we're running out of "ours," Bla, store bought isn't as good!

And taflar, I think you read that wrong. After feeding him just the Canidae for a few months and the gas not going away from it, Petco was having a sample sale of several "new" foods, and I liked the general looks of the ingredients of this "natural ultra mix-weight control formula," so I got a 3lbs bag as a treat for him. To my surprise giving it to him at about 1/4 of what he was eating of Canidae reduced the gas BIG TIME! so I started mixing half and half of the two till the 3lbs bag was gone. Seeing it was only a 4star food at DFA, I decided I wouldn't get it again, till the day after it ran out his gas was back. So, till this bag of Canidae is gone, I'm mixing the 2 and then we're trying something else. I am thinking though, that it is poultry that is his gas problem, so one food I have thought of is Canidae "lamb" formula, not sure at the moment as I've seen SO many other new foods out there since all those dang recalls.

And yep, I ALWAYS measure from where his foot hits the ground to the top of his shoulders and always get 14." Trust me, I was shocked the first few times, but was even more shocked after he broke his collar (snapped the plastic buckle) and I had to measure for a new one, went to the store and the collar for his size had the breed recommendations on the back of "Mastiff, Malamute, Rottweiler, German shepherd, etc."

[Jespah]

I highly recommend the Outward Hound Lifejackets as well. They do a very good job of helping keep the dogs head up and out of the water, which along with the boyancy goves them confidence. Mine wear theirs on boatrides as just like me, if there is an accident and I am hurt and cannot swim - neither can they.

[taflar]

And I guess you would call the people at this vet VET'S, but because they change them out so often I just don't always feel they deserve that title I guess.

Ok, and yes, if they went to college and got the degree they are vets, even if you don't care for them. A tech does not have the DVM title and maybe has gone to school to become a tech and maybe not. Some places anyone who assists a vet is called a tech. IMO, they're vetrinary assistants.

And it's not like this is your "low quality" farm vets,...

I have to disagree here too. A vet is not "low quality" just because he/she's a farm vet. Farm vets vary in how good they are like any other vet and some are VERY good and have high tech equiptment and are up on the latest techniques/treatments etc.

No, this vet came recommended by some of the top local show breeders,

In my experience, the show breeders usually know the best vets in the community.

At this point my mother still thinks he broke something, and its more then "just arthritis," so we're still on just scheduling X-rays for now to see.

If he broke something, like a bone there would be swelling. If it's a torn ligament he'd still be limping. Which leg is he limping on or favoring?

And taflar,

Please call me Peggy. I sign all my posts so my name is there every time. Taflar is my kennel name.

I think you read that wrong. After feeding him just the Canidae for a few months and the gas not going away from it, Petco was having a sample sale of several "new" foods, and I liked the general looks of the ingredients of this "natural ultra mix-weight control formula," so I got a 3lbs bag as a treat for him. To my surprise giving it to him at about 1/4 of what he was eating of Canidae reduced the gas BIG TIME! so I started mixing half and half of the two till the 3lbs bag was gone. Seeing it was only a 4star food at DFA, I decided I wouldn't get it again, till the day after it ran out his gas was back. So, till this bag of Canidae is gone, I'm mixing the 2 and then we're trying something else. I am thinking though, that it is poultry that is his gas problem, so one food I have thought of is Canidae "lamb" formula, not sure at the moment as I've seen SO many other new foods out there since all those dang recalls.

The new foods aren't because of the recalls. They were there before but might be marketing themselves more now due to the recalls.

I'd go with the food you tried that didn't give him the gas.

And yep, I ALWAYS measure from where his foot hits the ground to the top of his shoulders and always get 14."

But remember you said he's overweight and that adds height too. And don't count the fur in either. A thick coat can had a half inch or so.

Trust me, I was shocked the first few times, but was even more shocked after he broke his collar (snapped the plastic buckle) and I had to measure for a new one, went to the store and the collar for his size had the breed recommendations on the back of "Mastiff, Malamute, Rottweiler, German shepherd, etc."

Now, I will admit that corgis are not really small dogs, but if they should not be that big. I have a feeling that much of that is excess weight around his neck. (I've see this with fosters I've taken in that weighed 47+ lbs.) I think you need to consider a weight loss program for him very seriously.

Peggy

[MVons]

Canidae is a slightly higher calorie than some "cheaper" brands. When I reduced my prior dog from 3/4 cup to 2/3 cup she lost the extra pound she gained as a senior. Then I switched her to senior. Hind sight I would have put her on 1/2 cup each meal (2x a day) keeping her on the adult food as her coat was better. She had to stay at 26 pounds because of a severe turned out paw. But that was the food that was recalled and now gone - Sensible Choice.

I love your member name - Welsh stump - great for a pembroke owner!

You might also be looking around for physical therapy places for dogs as they might offer the whole gamut of chiropractor, acupuncture. Be sure to get your X-rays to take to the University.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Peggy, two things: how would you administer Beano to a dog, dosage that is? Mojo is starting to have smelly issues. And you made a great comment about getting advice from a vet, not the tech(I've been burned by one before, I take all questions straight to a vet now)and getting a second opinion on serious issues, and this is one, is important. Good luck Welshstump, and keep us posted.

[CorgiMum]

Sorry I'm of no help with the medical issues, but Dylan and I can vouch that the Outward Bound Life Vest is an excellent product.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/CorgiMum/PICT1150.jpg

[taflar]

Peggy, two things: how would you administer Beano to a dog, dosage that is?

They make one for dogs (Cur-Tail), it's the same thing as Beano but more expensive.

I think it's only a couple drops for a human so try half what's recommended for a human? Or ask your vet. Or for Mojo, even less than that. You just put it in their food.

And you made a great comment about getting advice from a vet, not the tech (I've been burned by one before, I take all questions straight to a vet now)and getting a second opinion on serious issues, and this is one, is important.

Advice is ok, and depends on the vet tech. Some are very knowlegable, and with some I know more than they do.

I said a vet tech shouldn't be diagnosing. Advice is different than diagnosing.

Peggy

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Thanks Peggy, I've never heard of Cur-tail, and will look for it. And you are very correct, advice is different than diagnosing.

[taflar]

Thanks Peggy, I've never heard of Cur-tail, and will look for it. And you are very correct, advice is different than diagnosing.

Some times vets carry it. Or seach google.

Peggy