Existing corgi not meshing with new puppy

[smerkor]

My wife and I have a 1.5 year old female pem (Minnie) and we just got a 4 month old male pem (Major). They have been together for 6 days.

The two dogs will be playing fine together and their fighting can and will quickly escalate. When I am around, they play together much better and are less quick to go into a full on brawl. I believe this has to do with the fact that Minnie sees me as the true pack leader and my wife as a quasi pack leader. When I’m not around however, which is 8-6, my wife just can’t control them. I know the easy answer seems that she simply needs to be more assertive as a pack leader, but trust me, she is extremely assertive and confident with the dogs, and it just does not seem to matter.

For a 1.5 year old, our Minnie seems much older than she is(she had bladder stone surgey 1.5 months ago), and just gets tired of playing. Major, even as a puppy, seems to be able to go all day. Minnie is coming across much more independent than we had initially thought and her interaction with him is surprising us. She has a play friend – female corgi her age, and they play together great all day). I'm just not sure if Minnie wants a housemate.

Reasons to think they can get along great. The two will drink out the same bowl, eat next to each other with no problem (no real jealous tendencies), play with their toys side by side. But Minnie can flip on a dime.

Minnie is always the aggressor, although Major can instigate it (he will try to mount her which we ALWAYS quickly stop)

Major is not fixed (we have an appointment to have him fixed on the 14th, but we are not sure this expense is worth it if we need to give him back).
Major loves everyone, very easy going, plays nice with Minnie. Kind of perfect.

We really like Major, but our first priority (right or wrong) is Minnie. We want to do what’s best for them both and are unsure what to do. We can easily give Major back to the breeder (there is a family in waiting) but I just don’t like giving up because something is difficult and forgo a potentially great friend for Minnie.

Will having Major fixed make a huge difference Is there an obvious solution I am missing? Too soon for a new puppy? Too soon to make a decision? Thanks for any help!

[colbycorgi]

first off i am really sorry to hear about yout siutation, i know it must be tough...we got cammie at 11 weeks when colby was 1year and 2 months and it has been pretty great for our two but we were skeptical too...are you sure they are "fighting"or are they just playing rough?? i ask because colby is a very happy go lucky, mellow yellow kind of boy and cammie has brought out in him a more vocal dog. at first i was concerned about their rough-housing as being too much but they do eventually stop and all is well..they go back and forth but each corrects the other when neccessary....as i mentioned in another post,colby seems a bit withdrawn/weird lately for us and we are wondering about spending time exclusively with each dog apart from the other to try and work some of that "new puppy in the house and shes REALLY not ever leaving" vibe out....not sure if any of this is helpful but i wish you well in whatever decision you make that is best for your family..good luck...

[smerkor]

Thanks for your reply. For Major's part, the rough playing is just that, playing. Minnie however takes it to the next level - she gets that look in her eye like she wants to tear his head off. Also not helping is that we are in an apartment and really don't have enough room for them have serious fights (Minnie attacks and Major will blindly run away and run into furniture) and he could hurt himself.

[MVons]

I am an only dog home and appreciate descriptions like yours showing the dynamics of a two dog home. While you wait for replies you can look at the threads

http://www.cool2bcorgi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3110

http://www.cool2bcorgi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450

http://www.cool2bcorgi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2577&highlight=another+corgi

http://www.cool2bcorgi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314

[Jespah]

Welcome to you all.

This is a tough one – there are no easy or distinct answers for you right now. First, I would say it’s too soon to give up – that’s just my opinion. I brought a 9-week-old male puppy home to a bossy 1 and half-year-old female and then when she died, I brought a 7-month-old female into our home to the by then 4-year-old male that now has fear aggression issues. Both situations worked out – but they took time.

I would not allow the 2 dogs to be together without either you or your wife present. I segregated my 7-month-old female from my male by baby gates until every time they were together with me present they were well behaved. I live in an apartment and my two FRAP from one end to the other and wrestle a lot!

Are you doing everything to make sure that Minnie knows she’s first? For me, I have fed the dog that was there first – before the new one and still do to this day.

I don’t know if Minnie is your 1st Corgi, but the girls can be stubborn, independent and a little or lot on the bossy side. She may become more so as she matures – I haven’t really seen that in my girl until these last few months now that she’s 2.5 years old. My male likes to have the female be the boss and he feels more secure that way.

When Major came into the family, it changed your pack and Minnie is telling him where he belongs. Being a pup, he’s just learning dog behaviours and that when Minnie gets rough and is telling him she’s the boss, he may not be getting the message yet. Has she tried biting him – or is it just very noisy tousling?

I think some of our breeders will have some better ideas for you – and I know that they will tell you that it doesn’t always work out, not all dogs like a companion dog. Hang in there though and see what others have to say – check out the links Merrie was kind enough to dig up and see what you can learn from them.

Deb

[smerkor]

Thanks so much Deb and Merrie.

Minnie was the 1st dog, and while we feed them at the same time, Minnie always gets her treats first. We do make sure they are never alone without one of us in the room. Minnie does bite Major. At first she would just go up to him and nibble on his ankles, but when they really get into it, she will grip down on his neck - I don't think she is close to drawing blood, but it does seem more than corrective action. It is plenty to make him yelp (he yelps easily though, Minnie rarely yelped).

I will check out the links this evening. Thanks again!

[Kassie]

Welcome and sorry for this rough start. We too are a 2 corgi home. Maeve was a about 1 year and 3 or 4 months when we got Aine. They do play pretty rough and getting by the neck seems to be a particularly corgi thing. Thank heavens for those ruffs! I know I thought my 2 were killing each other at times when it was play. We still watch. Aine as she flips out occasionally and gets really mad, but not nearly as often as she used to. She goes to time out when that happens, sometimes both of them. Maeve is a much more laid back dog than her sister, but even that has changed some over the last year. Our girls are 2 and almost 1. I would closely supervise them and try to stay on top of thhe tempers and hope they learn to play together. My 2 are very devoted to each other now. Although I know I am lucky in that respect having 2 females! Good luck and know you will find support here no matter what you ultimately decide!

[Jespah]

It's hard to say whether this neck grabbing is in rough play or truly fighting without seeing it. Neck grabbing and flipping, pinning or even yanking around is pretty normal rough play here at my place. Jemma is a like a Corgi broach to my Rupert - she'll grab him by his neck flab and get him going.

When I asked about biting - I was wondering if it was snapping biting that she was going after him and was drawing blood. If you haven't had much experience with dogs, it can be hard to understand certain behaviours - even with some experience.

Puppies do very well with routines and set times for activities - I believe there is some good info on that in the Puppy forum - check for posts from CorgiMum.

I don't know where you got Major from, but if they are willing to put in writing that they will reimburse you for his neuter surgery if things don't work out, then you could go ahead and plan that.

Please don't hesitate to ask any questions - we all were first timers at one point and you obviously have both dogs interests at heart.

[mtoy]

We have an 11 year old pembroke, last year we got a male cardigan puppy. They play rough. Much rougher than I had imagined. There has been no blood and it took a while for all of us to realize they were being dogs and not trying to kill each other. They've also had fights (rarely), and now we're really good at telling a fight from play (no blood on the fights, either, thank goodness).

One thing you may want to work on is obedience, and it's not too early for the puppy. If they see all humans as "above" them on the totem pole they will behave better, so all humans in the household need to work on it.

[smerkor]

We are on the fence about our decision. After watching them, I truly believe their fighting or rough housing is truly playing, and Minnie simply lets him know when enough is enough. However, the playing is much rougher when just my wife is in control.

That said, we have more or less decided to find a new home for Major as our apartment is simply not big enough for them to play like they will inevitably will, and we can't leave them alone when we are out of the house (Minnie is still kept in here crate when we are out, but we think she is ready to be left out on her own).

We did meet with a family the other day who has a male corgi, and they seem like a great fit, but the wife has her heart set on a younger puppy (Major is 4 and a half months, and I think they want more like 10 weeks) - if these people want him, our quandry will be solved and we will not really feel bad about our decision as Major will be in a good place. However, their decision is a coin flip.

We also could return him to the breeder (mom and pop breeder - they have a pair of corgis and have a litter yearly) but I just don't trust them to find a good/responsible home (this coming from the person returning him) as I think they will just sell him to the first person interested. The money is not important, and I will gladly give him away to the right home.

With all this said, my new issue is what is the best way to find Major a home. Newspaper? Craigslist? Return to breeder and hope they make the best decision as it is tough on us- especially wife - on getting attached. Any ideas? Thanks for all your support so far. Pics attached.

[taflar]

We are on the fence about our decision. After watching them, I truly believe their fighting or rough housing is truly playing, and Minnie simply lets him know when enough is enough. However, the playing is much rougher when just my wife is in control.

Even if they are playing and you're not sure that's really what it is, Minnie can hurt him if she chooses to. That she tires out easily concerns me. At 18 mos. a corgi is not mature and she should not be triring out. She is somewhat a "puppy" herself and should be able to keep up with a puppy.

I would be concerned that maybe she is still having some type of medical issues. I suggest that you have her checked, could be crystals in the urine, a urinary tract infection, or bladder stones reforming.

That said, we have more or less decided to find a new home for Major as our apartment is simply not big enough for them to play like they will inevitably will, and we can't leave them alone when we are out of the house (Minnie is still kept in here crate when we are out, but we think she is ready to be left out on her own).

A puppy should not be left out of a crate or pen when you're not home anyway. Minnie may be ready for it, but not your puppy. He's way too young to be reliable yet.

We did meet with a family the other day who has a male corgi, and they seem like a great fit, but the wife has her heart set on a younger puppy (Major is 4 and a half months, and I think they want more like 10 weeks) - if these people want him, our quandry will be solved and we will not really feel bad about our decision as Major will be in a good place. However, their decision is a coin flip.

We also could return him to the breeder (mom and pop breeder - they have a pair of corgis and have a litter yearly) but I just don't trust them to find a good/responsible home (this coming from the person returning him) as I think they will just sell him to the first person interested. The money is not important, and I will gladly give him away to the right home.

A reputable breeder would have had you sign a contract stating that they get first refusal on the puppy if you cannot keep him or that they get him back if you cannot keep him.

That does not mean the breeder has to keep a puppy for life. However, if they did not ask you questions, did not ask to meet your older dog and make sure this was the right puppy for your lifestyle then they most likely will not with the next person either.

With all this said, my new issue is what is the best way to find Major a home. Newspaper? Craigslist? Return to breeder and hope they make the best decision as it is tough on us- especially wife - on getting attached. Any ideas? Thanks for all your support so far. Pics attached.

I think you should call the breeder and ask them what their thoughts are.

I do not recommend Craigslist for placing a dog. People there are looking for free or very low cost. I do not recommend "free to a good home". I do recommend that you contact a corgi rescue group, that does not mean you have to turn him over to rescue but they might be willing to help you place the dog from your home, such as sending referrals to you.

Meantime, keep them seperated when Minnie doesn't want to play. Remove him from the situation when Minnie starts getting too rough or too grumpy.

Good luck!

Peggy

[smerkor]

Thanks Peggy -

We definitely won't let them out together alone without us present - especially Major. Minnie's not being able to keep up worries me as well. She has had a post-op urinary test and x-ray. I'm not sure if she is tired, or depressed - neither of which I would think she should be.

The breeder does have a clause that said she has first option to purchase the dog back - and I'm sure I could enforce it with her if she was reluctant (she is out of town and hasn't returned our call, but I get the impression that she wouldn't care if I sold him on) but I don't know if I want to go this route even if we can, as she will make no effort to screen anyone.

I agree with not advertising as "free for a good home" and I will definitely check out Corgi rescue places for referrals.

[taflar]

Thanks Peggy -

We definitely won't let them out together alone without us present - especially Major. Minnie's not being able to keep up worries me as well. She has had a post-op urinary test and x-ray. I'm not sure if she is tired, or depressed - neither of which I would think she should be.

How long ago was her surgery? And how long since her last check up?

The breeder does have a clause that said she has first option to purchase the dog back - and I'm sure I could enforce it with her if she was reluctant (she is out of town and hasn't returned our call, but I get the impression that she wouldn't care if I sold him on) but I don't know if I want to go this route even if we can, as she will make no effort to screen anyone.

Ok, most breeders who are what we'd consider not reputable (such as byb's/causual breeders, and even commercial breeders) will not have that clause. May I ask who the breeder is? (Privately, write me at taflar@allwest.net) Does your breeder show her dogs?

If she has the clause in her contract you should contact her. IMO, it is just wrong to sign a contract and not live up to it. At the very least ask if it's ok if you place him.

I agree with not advertising as "free for a good home" and I will definitely check out Corgi rescue places for referrals.

Try these sites for rescue contacts:
http://www.pembrokecorgirescue.com/HelpfulLinks.html
http://pwcca.org/rescue.html

If you don't see a rescue in your area, let us know, we might know of others that might be near you.

Peggy

[smerkor]

The Breeder for Major is Debra Nichols from Bastrop(Paige), Texas. Minnie's breeder was Kathleen Kelly from Fort Worth (Weatherford), Texas. If you have information about either of these I would love to know.

The couple that is interested in Major will let us know today. If they do not want him, I will pursue the corgi rescue route and try to obtain referrals.

[Jespah]

It sounds like you are doing the best thing for both Minnie and him. I'm sure you will find him a good home and someday you'll be in a position to have two Corgis. Let us know how things go.

Deb

[taflar]

The Breeder for Major is Debra Nichols from Bastrop(Paige), Texas. Minnie's breeder was Kathleen Kelly from Fort Worth (Weatherford), Texas. If you have information about either of these I would love to know.

The couple that is interested in Major will let us know today. If they do not want him, I will pursue the corgi rescue route and try to obtain referrals.

Do they have "kennel names" and do they show thier dogs?

A kennel name is the prefix used before the dogs names. For instance mine is Taflar and all the dogs I breed start with Taflar's _______________

Peggy

[smerkor]

No. I would say both of these both are your typical backyard breeder.

Do they have "kennel names" and do they show thier dogs?

A kennel name is the prefix used before the dogs names. For instance mine is Taflar and all the dogs I breed start with Taflar's _______________

Peggy

[taflar]

No. I would say both of these both are your typical backyard breeder.

Surprising then that they have a clause about returning the puppy. Most don't care. Still it would be a good idea to call them and see what they think.

I just don't like the idea of someone signing a contract and then ignoring it.

Peggy

[MVons]

Just curious would a reputable breeder give a refund if there is another owner in waiting to buy?

[Jespah]

I think it depends on the breeder Merrie. Jemma's breeder held my cheque for 30 days - once I confirmed we were good, she cashed it.

[smerkor]

Well all has ended well. The family that was interested in Major picked him up yesterday and now he is off to a good home with a backyard. (they were referred by the breeder).

Thanks so much for everyones help, this is a great forum.

[Kassie]

Stick around and let us get to know Minnie!:BIGGRIN"

[Jespah]

I'm glad that we were able to be of some help - and I'm sorry that you had to go through what you did with Major, but you did the best for him and Minnie.

Yes, I agree with Kassie, please use the Meet and Greet Forum and introduce yourself and Minnie - and warning - we love photos!!!!

Deb