Corgi Coloring Question

[MrsGrace]

Okay, I would like to pose a question that I've had for a while, but never asked. If I don't know as a relative newbie, I'm sure there are others with this same question.

How do you define the colors? What is "Sable" vs Red and White and how can you tell the difference? What colors are AKC standard for Corgis (Pems & Cardis) ?

I look at pictures of sables and R&W's and can't see a big difference. (although I admit to being blinded by puppy love! :LAUGH: )

Anyone with a more clear cut explanation?
Thanks!

[MVons]

http://www.phi-vestavia.com/cardigan_colors.htm
This website is who I refer to for the definitions.

Merrie

[CorgiMum]

Here's the CKC & AKC explanations.

http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=99&BreedCode=WCP

http://www.akc.org/breeds/pembroke_welsh_corgi/index.cfm

You can click on 'Other Breeds' for the Cardis

[Fluffypants]

Here's a link to the PWCCA website, showing pics of the various colors and coat patterns for Pems (including fluffies and whitelies and bluies).
http://www.pwcca.org/CorgiColor.html

[ColColt]

I think I need to get my eyes examined. When I first saw this thread, I thought it said, "Corgi Cloning Question" and thought, "Hmmmm...this should be interesting." Bless my heart!!"NO:":

[bunnybutts]

this is what I see in Pems here - and keep in mind I'm not an expert :WINK:

Sadie = sable

Emma = fawn & white

Chloe Belle = Black head tri

Jackie = Red head tri (fluffy)

Dillon / Gus = Red & white

[Dillydoodle]

luvmyfluffy: gizmo is a sable fluffy...

( i just wanted to add that one, the rest are all on the money !!)

Emilie

[Jespah]

Yup T-Gal and Em seem to have the Pems covered.

Cardis:

Ace - black headed tri Cardi
Wallace and Snowden - Blue merle cardis
Maya - what colouring is she?
Dudley - black and white cardi?

[Crazy Cardis]

Maya is a red and white, although I swear everyday she is getting more and more black hairs. Dudley is a tried and true brindle. You can't see it in most of his pictures because he is pretty dark. I'll try and find a pic that shows his coloring a bit better.

Here's a pic that shows Dudley's color better. Granted, it is not the most flattering picture of him ;)

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w319/CrazyCardis/IMG_0854.jpg

[Jespah]

I thought Dudley was a brindle - but I didn't know if it was associated with a specific colour - like brown brindle and I didn't know Cardis came as red and whites like Pems - always learning here! They are beautiful dogs - both have very expressive faces! Any new videos of the two of them running around???

[LoveMySadie]

Sadie is most definitely a classic sable with black tips on her outer coat and a black tipped widow's peak.

I'm just dying to see what the puppies turn out to be. They seem to change so much from birth to "mature puppy"! :BIGGRIN"

Here's a link to a fabulous site that I found demonstrating the gradual change in corgi coats. I can't think of another breed that changes so radically from birth to maturity!

http://www.haflinger.net/ImmerEssen/corgicolors.html

Whatever colors they turn out to be, corgi puppies are the best! +WUBCLUB+

Leslie

[Crazy Cardis]

From my very limited understand of colors, Cardis can come in all of the same colors as Pems and even more--like the blue merles and brindles. From what I gather, it is the amount of white that leads to faults in the show ring.

Sadie is beautiful! Maya's dad is a sable. Here is a link to my breeder's website if you want to check him out.

http://www.ozmocardigans.com/Kirby.html

[MrsGrace]

Sadie is most definitely a classic sable with black tips on her outer coat and a black tipped widow's peak.

I'm just dying to see what the puppies turn out to be. They seem to change so much from birth to "mature puppy"! :BIGGRIN"

Here's a link to a fabulous site that I found demonstrating the gradual change in corgi coats. I can't think of another breed that changes so radically from birth to maturity!

http://www.haflinger.net/ImmerEssen/corgicolors.html

Whatever colors they turn out to be, corgi puppies are the best! +WUBCLUB+

Leslie

Wow! That is a GREAT site for visual comparison! Thank you thank you!

So the puppy in my avatar MIGHT be a sable, but is most likely a R&W. And basically we'll see the changes over time?

[MVons]

http://www.coedwig.com/mystique.html Mystique is Coedwig’s first true sable in over 30 years of breeding. The website shows a front and side view.

She is our puppy's grandma on the mother's side.

Merrie

[taflar]

I thought this would be a quick peek while waiting for my clothes to dry before I went to bed. I'll be out of town tomorrow and Sunday. (Yes, at a dog show! :) )

I thought Dudley was a brindle - but I didn't know if it was associated with a specific colour - like brown brindle and I didn't know Cardis came as red and whites like Pems - always learning here! They are beautiful dogs - both have very expressive faces! Any new videos of the two of them running around???

Dudley is a brown brindle. And cardigans do come in red and white, and sable and white and tris and brown brindle, black brindle, red brindle and blue merle.

To answer the previous quesion that started this thread, a sable is a red dog with a black overlay. The black is like pencling. A "classic" or "full" sable has the monks cap w/widdows peak on the head.

Reds can have some sableing and still be reds. And you can have a sable that is a red headed sable such as my Lacy.

Here is a site that shows and explains sables.
http://www.terenelf.com/SableSite/sablesite2.html

Here's the webshots pages with my dogs, it shows various colors too.
Lacy is a red headed sable: http://pets.webshots.com/album/550714421LaNrGY

The British Invasion litter: Morgan, Mikey, Quinn and Rider are all full or classic sables. Kelsey is red and white. Their mother Lady is a black headed tri
http://pets.webshots.com/album/557909561lGCHzf

The Money Litter: Blaze is a red and white, JJ and Keno are full or classic sables, Lizi is a red headed tri.http://pets.webshots.com/album/558014813zJWgvd

Corgis: Lacy is a sable, Lady a black headed tri, Merlin is a red headed tri http://pets.webshots.com/album/558189286cpiflk

Cassidy (CWC) is a brown brindle http://pets.webshots.com/album/557954844DcRMiC

Rainbow Bridge, two corgis there, Blackjack is a red headed tri (PWC) and Laddie (CWC) is a brown brindle.

Peggy

[taflar]

From what I gather, it is the amount of white that leads to faults in the show ring.

While the amount of white and where it is can be a fault in the show ring it is not the only thing that is a fault or that stops a dog from being a show dog.

Unless the puppy is a mismark, meaning too much white or white in the wrong places, color is NOT the first thing a breeder looks at.

It is the bone structure and the physical make up of the dog that is the most important. A dog is judged first on bone structure and movement.

Flashy markings do draw the eye to a dog and it is true a flasy dog has an easier time in the ring, but that is not the most important thing in the show ring. A good judge will see past the markings and flash and see the whole dog.

A show dog does not have to have flashy markings, they do not have to have a white collar or 4 white feet or legs.

Peggy

[taflar]

So the puppy in my avatar MIGHT be a sable, but is most likely a R&W. And basically we'll see the changes over time?

Right. Ask the breeder she might have an idea if he'll be a sable or not. But the picture you have is too young to tell yet.

Peggy

[Dillydoodle]

Thanks peggy for the links, I was trying to find that tenerelf link with the description of sable and couldn't remember where i had seen it before.
Great photos with description of colors - quite helpful when trying to understand the different colors.

Emilie

[LoveMySadie]

"A "classic" or "full" sable has the monks cap w/widdows peak on the head." - Taflar

So, Sadie is a full sable? I'm a new corgi person, and I'm still learning my way around this amazing breed!

Leslie

[Cheetah]

Shippo seems very red, but when I look closely at his hairs, they are still black-tipped, and he also has that "widdow's peak" thing. Can corgis be classified as "red sable"?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v159/ShroudedCheetah/ShippoTilt.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v159/ShroudedCheetah/RavinelFoxMagick.jpg

[Dillydoodle]

Based on everything that i have learned ( and Peggy correct me if i am wrong) but sadie would be a classic sable with that widows peak. and shippo is classic red and white. Dillon had a faint widows peak as a puppy that faded out as he got redder, and he still has some hairs that are tipped with black but not as much as you see in a real sable...

Emilie

[Artos]

I too am confused re the various shades of brown, orange and red...I know that Barn2 is a red headed tri. What is Trax? (His photo is in my profile and is the first dogster address you see below).... Is he sable?
Thanks.

At what age would the puppy fur be replaced by the adult fur (ie when would the colors become 'distinct') in a PWC?

[Dillydoodle]

Trax is a classic red and white corgi. Good question about the puppy coat, i think Dillon's was a gradual fading of the brown "muddy" look and i think by the time he was 3 months old he was looking Red and white- I had to look back at baby photos... For Dillon sometime between 11 wks when he first came home and 14 weeks we went from a little redish brown and white looking pup to a more red and white! The other thing is he got redder as he got a bit older as well, so photos of him at 16 wks compared to one year you can see a reddening of the coat a bit. I will be interested to hear what others say though.
Emilie

[LuvMyFluffy]

My Gizmo is definitely a sable, and it really shows up with the longer coat. I posted Gizmo's headshots of when he was a puppy compared to today on Foto Friday. I took him to the groomer yesterday, so he had lots of hair taken off the back and underneath, I don't like any of his topside trimmed. Here is another picture of him taken today:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/JudyInIndy/GizmoCropped.jpg
Here is what his colors look like on top:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/JudyInIndy/GizmoBack.jpg

[LaRositaMonita]

Ohhh, is Gizmo a handsome boy! I'm not a huge fluffy fan myself, but you have to love that beautiful coat. He looks like a Collie or a Sheltie cut off at the knees! :SHOCKED::BIGGRIN"

[Cheetah]

I thought Shippo was going to grow up sable like Gizmo, but he surprised me by turning red. >^^;<

[Dillydoodle]

OH GIZMO!!!! i want to squeeze him!!! he looks like a teddybear! The photos you took are helpful to show sable coat on a fluffy. He is really quite lovely... what a face...sigh


Emilie

[Artos]

Thanks all for clarifying re what is a 'red' x white corgi. What's the difference between fawn and sable ?

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Beautiful photos of Gizmo!!!

[Dillydoodle]

Fawn would be a light light red, look at Emma ( bunnybuttsX2 aka Tgal) she is a good example of what one might call fawn ( still red and white, just very light red). Sable has black tipping on the hairs that you wont see in a Fawn.. I am hoping that if i am wrong here, that someone will correct me, but i think i got it ! LOL!

Emilie

[Artos]

Thanks. Dillon and Gus- are they considered sables?

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Miss Gambler is a Sable.

[Dillydoodle]

Dillon and Gus are red and whites...

[taflar]

"A "classic" or "full" sable has the monks cap w/widdows peak on the head." - Taflar

So, Sadie is a full sable? I'm a new corgi person, and I'm still learning my way around this amazing breed!

Looks like it! :)

Peggy

[taflar]

Shippo seems very red, but when I look closely at his hairs, they are still black-tipped, and he also has that "widdow's peak" thing. Can corgis be classified as "red sable"?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v159/ShroudedCheetah/ShippoTilt.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v159/ShroudedCheetah/RavinelFoxMagick.jpg

Nope, this is a red and white.

Peggy

[taflar]

I too am confused re the various shades of brown, orange and red...I know that Barn2 is a red headed tri. What is Trax? (His photo is in my profile and is the first dogster address you see below).... Is he sable?
Thanks.


The various shades are called red. Some will say fawn for a very light red. But genetically they're reds. Just varying shades. The sades can vary from amost a lemon yellow red to a dark brick or mahogany red.

Trax is a red. I'd call that a medium red.

At what age would the puppy fur be replaced by the adult fur (ie when would the colors become 'distinct') in a PWC?

Depends on the puppy and the color, but usualy by 4 mos.. Usually the color starts on the head and spreads back. You'll also start seeing a differece in texture and color in a "stripe" area along the spine. This then spreads to the whole dog.

Peggy

[bunnybutts]

Artos,

while at the Corgi Picnic this past weekend, Debbie Glencorgi explained to us the way you can tell if a Tri-color puppy will be a Red-head tri like Barns or a Black-head tri like my Chloe...

when you look at Barns baby pics he has the black head BUT he has the "monk cap" or some call "widows peak" markings around his eyes. when you look at Chloe she has brown "eye brow's" but thats all... (click on Chloe Belle and that will take you to her dogster puppy pics) as the Red-head tri gets older the "monks cap" gets larger and grows up becoming red. with "eye brows" they stay pretty much the same and the black remains.

hope this helps :BIGGRIN"

[taflar]

when you look at Barns baby pics he has the black head BUT he has the "monk cap" or some call "widows peak" markings around his eyes.

Well, IMO, a widdow's peak is like on a sable. The peak between the eyes but does not surround the eyes.

With a black headed tri, the mask surrounds the eyes. Think "Lone Ranger".

Usually a puppy's color starts around the eyes. If a tri puppy is going to be a red headed one, the area around the eyes begins to turn red, and the top of the head begins to redden too. A black headed tri will stay black around the eyes and on top of the head.

Peggy

[LoveMySadie]

This has all been so helpful! If you look at our individual pictures of the puppies in Puppy Fever (Gus and the Girls - Head Shots), can you tell anything about the ultimate coloring this early? I've been guessing that the three "brown" ones will ultimately be sables like Sadie. Will some of the black "fade" on the others? The blacks are all getting red in their legs and faces already.

Wow! I've never dealt with a breed that changes coat colors quite so dramatically. The website that I entered earlier in this post fascinates me - I keep looking at it to see where Sadie's puppies fall!

Leslie

[Artos]

Thanks folks! Helpful...especially about black and red headed tris.
I was looking for a black headed tri when I found Barn. But no complaints.
Dont seem to see too many black headed tris around. Most are reds, sables and if we have tris here, they are red headed tris.
I dont think there are any corgi breeders in Singapore. Most are imported from Australia.

[Crazy Cardis]

Does that mean Maya is just a darker red than most of the other reds here?

[bunnybutts]

Well, IMO, a widdow's peak is like on a sable. The peak between the eyes but does not surround the eyes.

With a black headed tri, the mask surrounds the eyes. Think "Lone Ranger".

Usually a puppy's color starts around the eyes. If a tri puppy is going to be a red headed one, the area around the eyes begins to turn red, and the top of the head begins to redden too. A black headed tri will stay black around the eyes and on top of the head.

Peggy

Thanks Peggy :SMILE: that's what I was trying to say in a long, round-about, confusing way :CUTE: Chloe has the Lone Ranger mask along with the brown eye brows...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t47/TGal_photos/corgi%20girls/IMGP0681-1.jpg

[Dillydoodle]

very cute picture of Chloe in her bed!

[bunnybutts]

Inmate Chloe was doing Hard Time! Solitary confinement and the Zapper around her neck in case she escaped out the door :SHOCKED: You can see she's guilty by the mask she still had on!

not really - she just ran in there to rest/sleep and I took her picture b4 taking the collar off :WINK:

[glencorgi]

Does that mean Maya is just a darker red than most of the other reds here?

Cardigans tend to be a little deeper red and just a bit different than most of the red Pembrokes around today.

Debbie

[Crazy Cardis]

Thanks Debbie! I had actually never seen a red cardi, even in pictures, before Maya's litter. There were three of them, and she was the darkest one.