Help! Barn2 trying to dominate Trax...

[Artos]

Since Trax turned vegetarian(because of skin problems), Barn2 has been trying (the last three days) to topdog him. When Trax is eating, Barn might suddenly jump on him and start fighting. When Trax is sleeping at the foot of my computer table (Barn's favourite place nowadays)- Barn will rush at him. I have grabbed Barn and turned him tummy up before Trax in all those situations.

I think Barn2 (3 years old) is trying to take over from Trax as alpha of the canine pack and I am not letting him do that.

Trax is now 13 years old. I suspect he is getting a bit blind. He seems to hear quite well though. He is more placid now (must be the vegetarian food) and certainly weaker than before. Noticed a movable non-painful flattish lump about 2 inches in diameter on his left side (above the ribcage)tonight. Not sure what that is. Am concerned.

Questions:
1 Should I continue to reinforce the Trax-as-Topdog hierarchy or should I let Barn2 take over from Trax?
2 How would it affect Trax's morale if this happens?
3 Whats the lump on Trax?
(I know its not lymphoma because I had a corgi with that before and I know it feels hard and is located under the armpits).

Thanks.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

As far as the lump is concerned, has he had any vaccinations lately, they can leave some lumps like that? My vet recently talked to me about that because she will not give a cat over seven years old a three year rabies vaccination becasue of this. I have also heard that repeated Frontline(or whatever you use) can cause lumps. I would definitely ask a vet about it. Your younger dog is probably sensing that the older is no longer as strong, and it may not be anything that you can control, it's just the natural order of things. Your older dog may actually happily accept this in time.

[Jespah]

As per the lump - palpating it - or feeling it doesn't tell you what it is. It could just be a fatty tissue lump which some dogs are just prone to - especially as they get older. Lymphoma can form in different places and in different forms. I think it's always worth a vet visit personally.

I don't know that the vegetarian issue is the cause of Barn2 going after Trax. It may be becuase he can tell that he has different food and feels threatened - or it could be because Trax is older now or maybe because there is something more going on with the lump. I would keep dominating B2 whenever you catch him going after Trax - don't leave them together unsupervised or it could escalate and someone could get seriously hurt.

I think that you need to protect Trax from B2 - not so much reinforce Trax as the alpha. Attend to the lump first though.

Deb

[Dillydoodle]

I agree with Deb here, I would go to the vet to make sure the lump is nothing to worry about. As she said- lipomas - fatty benign deposits - become common in some older animals and are not harmful- My cat Suki has one. and when i found it i freaked out ,completely worried about what it was, took her to the vet and was reassured that it was just a fatty lipoma and nothing to worry about- I would get the advice of a vet though on that one.
As for the dominating, I again agree that making Barn2 respectful of YOU as the alpha by not rushing Trax is the way to go... the real Alpha is YOU... and reminding Barn of that by making him submissive to you is probably the best course of action in my opinion. I also agree i would separate them when you cant be there to watch, you wouldnt want anyone getting injured...


Emilie

[Artos]

Thanks. I have a very vague recollection that the lump could be something that I noticed some time ago and the vet said it had something to do with fat (Trax is obese). I will certainly ask the vet the next time I see him (he is out of town at present).

Do you ever get a younger dog taking over from an older dog as topdog? Whats the effect on the older dog? I dont want Trax to be crushed by this.

My two still playfight quite a bit and they groom each other affectionately as well. In fact, they did both tonight in between the episodes of fighting(growling fiercely but no actual injury noted).

I did notice at Trax avoided eye contact with Barn2 on a few occasions after or during a fight. I am wondering if I am postponing the inevitable (ie Barn becomes topdog)?

Realised I am giving wrong signals to Barn.
1 He is the one who gets to go out more often nowadays (it is hard to control two corgis. Trax tires easily and walks very slowly. Barn runs ahead).
2 Barn sleeps on my bed. Trax has decided he didnt want to climb the doggy steps up to my bed. Trax has been sleeping on the cool stairs landing or in my father's airconditioned room (Trax has one of his three beds there. Yup, he has three beds in the house).
3 Barn gets carried.
Trax -less so because he is too heavy (20kg), he snaps at me when I try to carry him...and Barn2 will try to bite his backside when I lift him up...!
4. When we watch TV, Barn now jumps on to the sofa (only the last 2 days) to sit with us. Trax sleeps under the table. Tonight, I carried Trax up to sit with me. This was after Barn tried to topdog him twice and got put in his place by me. Barn was not too happy.
5. When I feed the dogs, I feed Trax first. Since my dad gets up early and he feeds the dogs, he will feed Barn first (Barn eats normal food) and then he will feed Trax (freshly cut papaya or vegetarian kibble) No amount of nagging will get my dad to reverse the order.

[Jespah]

That's good if you get the lump looked at Artos.

Re:the boys and the top-dog issue. We certainly can end up reinforcing who is the alpha in a household by all the things you were saying. Who goes first, who gets fed first, who sleeps on the bed - and closest to your head. Everything you are doing is telling Trax that he is the alpha - sitting on the sofa, carrying him, feeding 1st (your Dad), going out on his own with you. It may be that Trax has decided that indeed he is the top dog - which may be fine, but he is going to let Barn2 know it by doign what dogs do to communicate his dominance. Barn2 may not want to give that up yet, who knows - other than him. They need to sort it out - but under a watchful eye - as it sounds like it's been getting a bit too physical.

You can even or change the playing field by changing your behaviors with the dogs. Making Trax sleep off the bed, always feeding Barn2 first, keeping Trax off the sofa, etc.

Make sure B2 is healthy first.

Deb

[Artos]

That's good if you get the lump looked at Artos.

Re:the boys and the top-dog issue. We certainly can end up reinforcing who is the alpha in a household by all the things you were saying. Who goes first, who gets fed first, who sleeps on the bed - and closest to your head. Everything you are doing is telling Trax that he is the alpha - sitting on the sofa, carrying him, feeding 1st (your Dad), going out on his own with you. It may be that Trax has decided that indeed he is the top dog - which may be fine, but he is going to let Barn2 know it by doign what dogs do to communicate his dominance. Barn2 may not want to give that up yet, who knows - other than him. They need to sort it out - but under a watchful eye - as it sounds like it's been getting a bit too physical.

You can even or change the playing field by changing your behaviors with the dogs. Making Trax sleep off the bed, always feeding Barn2 first, keeping Trax off the sofa, etc.

Make sure B2 is healthy first.

Deb

Thanks Deb. I think you mean Barn when you wrote Trax and Trax when you wrote Barn. :LAUGH: Trax is my 13 year old alpha. Barn is my 3 year old wannabe alpha.

[Fluffypants]

I think that you need to protect Trax from B2 - not so much reinforce Trax as the alpha. Attend to the lump first though.

Deb

I agree. Good luck!

[Jespah]

Thanks Deb. I think you mean Barn when you wrote Trax and Trax when you wrote Barn. :LAUGH: Trax is my 13 year old alpha. Barn is my 3 year old wannabe alpha.

Oops -so many Corgis to keep track of Artos - yes, you, of course, are right! You got my message though :WINK:

Deb

[bunnybutts]

I agree too... B2 is sensing Traxs is getting older and B2 is ready to become #2 and move Trax to #3 in line... Just keep Trax safe till they settle into their new roles. Looking away is dog talk for "uncle - I give up, your the better dog"

Main thing that will keep peace is you being the Alpha. I had the same trouble with Emma (8, docile, health problems) and Chloe (16 mths, outgoing personality) Once I stepped up and became the Alpha B!@*h Hubby knows me to be :LAUGH: things have settled down. I'm #1, Chloe ended up 2nd and Em is happy as #3.

[corgimom]

Artos

In regards to the lump, sometimes a vet will do a needle aspiration of the fluid in the lump and have it checked, to make sure it is nothing to be concerned about. This was done with one of my pets before any attempt was made to remove it surgically.

Hopefully it is just a fatty tissue one.

[mtoy]

I'm going through the same thing with my two. Millie has always been top dog and wants to stay there, but Link is definitely up-and-coming. Millie gets very upset when link goes out the door before her, stuff like that. Then again I notice when I walk both together Millie starts out in front but soon gives it up to Link for the long haul. A lot of Millie's problem is she's a resource guarder, and I finally realized the main thing she's guarding is *me*. Ugh, a challenge for sure.

[Artos]

Barn did it again -twice - tonight.

Trax just had his dinner and was seated comfortably with his new toy. Barn has also been given a new toy. Barn comes down, leaves his own toy and starts staring at Trax. I notice his body tensing. I grab him as he growls and jumps on Trax. Trax fights back. Barn launched himself at the old boy. I push Barn down, flip him to his side and lets Trax growl at him. Both relax. I release Barn. That was Part I.

A few minutes later, the scene repeats itself. Barn tenses up, attacks Trax. I grab Barn. This time, Trax was very strong in his growling and snapping at Barn. Separating them, I felt some pain in my hand. One of them must have hit some nerve in my hand with his teeth. I ignored the pain, pushed Barn down. Trax went for him....growling...
Then peace.

Not sure who really won. No blood drawn on the dogs. Their growls were worse than their bites I think.

I went upstairs to my computer. Trax went to my dad's room to sleep. Barn is sleeping outside my room at present. (He will soon go to my bed to sleep).
I found a tiny cut on my hand. A bit of bleeding but the pain was from the hit nerve rather than the cut.
Ouch.

How long do I have to reinforce Trax's position before Barn gets the message?
Barn knows I am topdog. I stare him down.(Yup, he tried to outstare me but he lost ) Trax knows that too. Its Barn who doesnt know that he cant topple Trax from the number 2 position.

[bunnybutts]

Artros

are both your boys neutered? with Em and Chloe they started settling down in a week or so but it was still a few months b4 there were no outbreaks (paws crossed we havent had one for a while now)

Debbie Glencorgi and Peggy both said I had to be consistent, in charge, and not take any crap from either girl... I had to put Chloe in her crate a couple of times while talking loudly :REALLYMAD: to her so she would know how unhappy I was...

maybe best if you PM Glencorgi or Peggy for guidance on this - they have a lot of experience to help us...

[Artos]

Trax is neutered. Barn isnt.
Trax was impossible when he first came to us.
Very hyper, very aggressive.
Neutering didnt make any difference at all.
So I didnt neuter Barn when he came.
Besides, he wasnt half as aggressive or bossy as Trax (the neutered or unneutered version).

[Jespah]

This doesn't sound very good - Barn is getting quite aggressive - I would consider neutering Barn. It can be so much better for them health-wise in the end as well. You are going to have to be very strong and consistant with Barn - are they together when you aren't home - that could be dangerous for Trax.

Make sure that Trax is healthy - if he's not, that may be contributing to Barn taking advantage of him and going for alpha. I don't know it just seems to be very aggressive to me - not the normal - I'm in charge now.

Has Barn ever been aggressive with other dogs before Trax???

[Artos]

Barn has been trying to dominate Marky our Singapore Special (ie mongrel). Marky lives at the back of the house (he and Trax dont get along) and Marky is the size of a German Shepherd/Alsation. Barn goes to the back door and growls at Marky. Marky does the same to him.

Trax can still pack a good bite.
He has always been the most aggressive one in the family and when he growled at Barn yesterday, he meant business. I was glad he was angry enough to do that yesterday. I think he just needs reinforcement from me - ie that I still rate him as topdog to Barn.

Barn looked very sheepish and very 'beaten' last night. Had a hangdog look, didnt even want to come to the bed. I think he got the message that he isnt Trax's senior. I had to try to assure the sad looking boy that I still loved him. Poor thing.

Maybe I am different. I dont want 'good' 'obedient' dogs. Almost didnt adopt Barn when I first saw him because he was so 'goody goody' and 'pleasant'. I adopted Trax because he bit me when I first saw him in his first home. He had spunk. I respect the fiesty attitude in a dog. I dont worry about not being in control of the dogs. They know I am in control but I dont want to crush their spirits. I'd rather they be as strong as they can be. I can handle that. It makes life more intesting.

I guess all I want to know is:
a. Should I let Barn topdog Trax ?
b. What would the effects be on Trax ie his morale?


Thanks.

[The Chipmunk's Mom]

I would be afraid that he would hurt your older dog and search for a way that they would all get along. Dogfights scare me to death.

[MrsGrace]

I would be afraid that he would hurt your older dog and search for a way that they would all get along. Dogfights scare me to death.

+1

And I would suggest neutering any and all animals. Period. It's just healthier for them and easier in the long run in keeping those raging hormones under control.

[Artos]

Thanks but I am not neutering Barn.

My greatest fear is not dog fights.
I fear the crushing the spirit of the dog eg in Trax if he loses his ranking and in Barn if he thinks he is the undervalued underdog.

[Dillydoodle]

My suggestion would be that you need to step in and be the alpha dog... an alpha dog doesn't allow the underlings to fight ever! They maintain peace and order. If Barn or Trax is growling or posturing for dominance, you step in immediately and give them a firm NO. With my two, both are neutered, one is more dominant than the other but both are pretty submissive... I have had a few instances where Dillon tries to dominate gus... I wont allow it, i nip it in the bud, he has no right to dominate anyone, nor does Gus, afterall *I* am the number one, there is no number two and number three, the only number that matters is number one.... I would separate them when you are not going to be able to monitor them during the day. The last thing you want to come home to find is a bloody mess. I would really be more concerned with dog fighting than with spirit... I think if you treat them equally, and you are the boss, they will both relax a little, becuase in every pack if you are the boss, it takes the pressure off of them to have to step up into that role.

Just my two cents...

Emilie

[The Chipmunk's Mom]

Well said Emilie. Glencorgi would be able to give you alot more insight into dogfights then I can but there is always the risk that one dog could kill the other dog and it is a very risky situation to have. I would also neuter, calms them down a bit and do as Emilie says and gain control of the situation.

[Artos]

My suggestion would be that you need to step in and be the alpha dog... an alpha dog doesn't allow the underlings to fight ever! They maintain peace and order. If Barn or Trax is growling or posturing for dominance, you step in immediately and give them a firm NO. With my two, both are neutered, one is more dominant than the other but both are pretty submissive... I have had a few instances where Dillon tries to dominate gus... I wont allow it, i nip it in the bud, he has no right to dominate anyone, nor does Gus, afterall *I* am the number one, there is no number two and number three, the only number that matters is number one.... I would separate them when you are not going to be able to monitor them during the day. The last thing you want to come home to find is a bloody mess. I would really be more concerned with dog fighting than with spirit... I think if you treat them equally, and you are the boss, they will both relax a little, becuase in every pack if you are the boss, it takes the pressure off of them to have to step up into that role.

Just my two cents...

Emilie

Thanks. This is interesting.
Do they not work in a hierarchy- ie Number 1-the human and then Number 2 and Number 3 etc? Or do they only need a Number 1 and then dont bother about the sub ranking?


They do know I am boss and I think yesterday's episode (the last fight) told Barn very clearly that I am boss and Trax is above him (ie when Trax was very angry).

Noticed today that the two seemed to be better behaved around each other-they playfought (as usual) and they groomed each other (as usual). They can be really sweet around each other.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biDdrTHEw-8 Chewing each other on the bed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJzckIoJ_hM Barn trying to lay paws on Trax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09IQ2t7sfzE Barn frapping around Trax....

[Jespah]

Maybe I am different. I dont want 'good' 'obedient' dogs. Almost didnt adopt Barn when I first saw him because he was so 'goody goody' and 'pleasant'. I adopted Trax because he bit me when I first saw him in his first home. He had spunk. I respect the fiesty attitude in a dog. I dont worry about not being in control of the dogs. They know I am in control but I dont want to crush their spirits. I'd rather they be as strong as they can be. I can handle that. It makes life more intesting.

I guess all I want to know is:
a. Should I let Barn topdog Trax ?
b. What would the effects be on Trax ie his morale?
Thanks.

Obedient dogs and dangerous dogs are very different thing. Dogs have been domesticated and bred to please us and that makes them happy. Being obedient and rewarded for their obedience makes a healthy relationship - usually with a human as the alpha. Being their alpha does not crush their spirits - they are pack animals and packs have hierarchies - and you need to be alpha. Yes, they do have sub-rankings.

You are asking if you should let Barn be over Trax - I'd say no because it is being done in such an aggressive manner - you need to be very dominant over both of them and not let Barn get away with anything with Trax. Treat Trax as the alpha and don't let Barn get away with the agression towards any dog. I do not agree that allowing dogs to bite humans or other dogs is letting them be free-spirited. You are not crushing his "spirit" by allowing aggression - you are setting some person or other dog up for a terrible injury - or even him. Aggression is not spirit, or spunk.

Cowering, being afraid of others, fear of everything is more what a crushed spirit is. Dogs who live togther, play together, groom each other and are happy and loved have spirits that are intact.

Artos I am not criticizing you - you asked for our help and advice, so I have let you know what I think - they are your dogs and I hope they will be able to be happy and safe with each other and you.

Deb

[Artos]

I have no problems being their alpha.

The first question I had right from the start was- should I let Barn2 dominate Trax?
I had the lion pack at the back of my mind when I asked this.Lions do have takeovers in the wild- when old alpha is not able to lead, younger punk takes over. Trax is getting on in age. Was wondering if I am postponing the inevitable. Secondly,I wanted to know the effects on him if I were to let that happen.

If that direction is no go for dogs, I know what to do.

But bottom line is- while I do not want overly aggressive dogs, I dont want submissive, compliant and cowering dogs either. I have seen owners who are control types - their dogs have become servile in their obedience. Its very sad and I dont want that to happen to my furkids.

[Jespah]

Well as long as Barn doesn't become alpha by sheer agression and attacks, then it's Trax who will decide whether to let B2 be alpha. It won't hurt his morale, as long as you continue to treat them equally as the alpha.

I agree with you - I've seen dogs that are servile they seem to have no personalities or spirit - I don't like that either. My dogs are spunky, free, full of personality - but they listen to me when they should. That's a healthy balance.

Deb

[CorgiMum]

Maybe I am different. I dont want 'good' 'obedient' dogs.

I think that there are many different ways that people think about their dogs, but, any dog's thinking is basically the same.

If you don't want obedient dogs, then they will be in charge of you.


Almost didnt adopt Barn when I first saw him because he was so 'goody goody' and 'pleasant'. I adopted Trax because he bit me when I first saw him in his first home. He had spunk. I respect the fiesty attitude in a dog. I dont worry about not being in control of the dogs. They know I am in control but I dont want to crush their spirits.



You are not in contol of a dog that is bitting you. Dogs argue over who is top dog if they do not know who is. That is the pack mentality. When they know their place in the pack, it allows them to be relaxed and happy. That makes them strong dogs IMO.


I'd rather they be as strong as they can be. I can handle that. It makes life more intesting.


Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by your last two sentances. Smooth adjustment in the pack, relaxed, playful dogs, watching how they interact with me and with themselves in a joyus way, that make life very interesting in our house.

You asked:
"How long do I have to reinforce Trax's position before Barn gets the message?"

The answer is forever. As you see, when the picture is not clear to all of the dogs, there is fighting.

I thought that maybe you might be interested in reading this link.

http://www.forpaws.org/articles/alpha.htm

Good luck with your crew, and please keep us posted on how things are working out.:)

[CorgiMum]

But bottom line is- while I do not want overly aggressive dogs, I dont want submissive, compliant and cowering dogs either. I have seen owners who are control types - their dogs have become servile in their obedience. Its very sad and I dont want that to happen to my furkids.

I've seen that too, a very sad life for the dogs. +SAD+ I've even seen that in Prof. dog trainers. Some people unfortunatley get dogs so that they can dominate them.

Each owner needs to finds the happy balance for their relationships with their dogs, and sometimes, as time goes on, things change do to the age of the pack members, or their medical conditions.

[Artos]

Well as long as Barn doesn't become alpha by sheer agression and attacks, then it's Trax who will decide whether to let B2 be alpha. It won't hurt his morale, as long as you continue to treat them equally as the alpha.

I agree with you - I've seen dogs that are servile they seem to have no personalities or spirit - I don't like that either. My dogs are spunky, free, full of personality - but they listen to me when they should. That's a healthy balance.
Deb


"How long do I have to reinforce Trax's position before Barn gets the message?"

CORGIMUM: The answer is forever.

I thought that maybe you might be interested in reading this link.

http://www.forpaws.org/articles/alpha.htm

I've seen that too, a very sad life for the dogs. I've even seen that in Prof. dog trainers. Some people unfortunatley get dogs so that they can dominate them.

Each owner needs to finds the happy balance for their relationships with their dogs, and sometimes, as time goes on, things change do to the age of the pack members, or their medical conditions. (unquote)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helpful. Thanks.

I guess I had seen too many people who enjoy too much- the one-upmanship with dogs in the name of 'obedience training' and their dogs are mere extensions of their will.....sometimes a quivering mess. Been to dog obedience classes where hyper aggressive dogs are 'hung' with choke chains to make them comply. Am not against the practice (I had to do it on one of my strong minded German Shepherds/Alsatians a long time ago) but am careful to thread the fine line between enforcing the alpha position and power crazy abuse.

Hence I like more spontaneous reactions in my three furkids-especially the corgis. Am comfortable, even highly amused by their 'occasional rudeness' to me (they scold and by the way they do it, I know they were using certain #@(#*!@&! words in canine language) because I am comfortable in my alpha status with them.

Its a case of balance. Will certainly be more consistent with my alpha practices. Liked your link better than the one I have been reading in the past....maybe it was from Caesar Milan (everyone seems to be quoting him. Dont know who he is anyway).

Trax is a 'hard' dog. I think he has something quite close to the 'canine rage symptoms'. I dont know what his roots are but he is a bit crazy. I have learnt to handle him firmly but carefully.

Barn and Marky (my mutt) are actually very ' soft' dogs. Barn has been schooled by Trax and has gained far more confidence (might be just a persona he puts on ) than Marky who is really a chicken with visible stray dog characteristics (anxious,dont know how to play, overly submissive when confronted with some human aggression, cringes in fear etc). Marky was a stray (a car hit and run victim) -whom we fostered then adopted six years ago.

I noticed that male dogs tend to 'act out' physically. Not very imaginative in the way they react ie if they play attack from one position, they will always do it from that position. Predictable.

I used to have a girl corgi who plays mind games on us. She will think through what she wants to do to act out most effective way of
'getting even' with us when she is angry. It was interesting and very funny (after the event, not when it happens).

[CorgiMum]

I guess I had seen too many people who enjoy too much- the one-upmanship with dogs in the name of 'obedience training' and their dogs are mere extensions of their will.....sometimes a quivering mess. Been to dog obedience classes where hyper aggressive dogs are 'hung' with choke chains to make them comply. Am not against the practice (I had to do it on one of my strong minded German Shepherds/Alsatians a long time ago) but am careful to thread the fine line between enforcing the alpha position and power crazy abuse.

I've seen that type of person be allowed to handle their dog in Ob classes that way too. Those are not the classes, or the type of trainers that I allow my dogs to be around. I had a less that good experience many years ago taking our first classes from an instructor that I now know was too rough for what my training beliefs are. Luckly, I did not ruin my dog. I agree, there can be a very fine line when it comes to training.


Liked your link better than the one I have been reading in the past....maybe it was from Caesar Milan (everyone seems to be quoting him. Dont know who he is anyway).

I'm glad that you like the link, there are so many online, we really need to weed out what works best for our dogs. Some idea from one, some ideas from another.

I personally am not a Caeser Milan fan. I train with positive reinforcements.

[Artos]

This afternoon, I put Trax on my bed. Barn came in and looked a bit confused. Then he came up and tried to growl at Trax. He barely got half a growl off his throat when he was put in his place. In the end, he decided to give Trax the whole bed and jumped off. But later, about half an hour after Trax got off the bed, he jumped up and slept there.

I have had two German Shepherds(GSD)/Alsations share the bed before. They took a quarter of the bed each with me taking half of it. There were no fights between the GSDs. The female one was the Alpha. Later, I had the female GSD and a female Golden Retriever (the male GSD died). Both got on well on the bed too.

But I noticed that even in the past, when Trax was on the bed(that was the time when Trax was undeniably the alpha of the two), Barn wont stay there for long. Wondered why. Is it a male corgi thing?

[taflar]

Since Trax turned vegetarian(because of skin problems), Barn2 has been trying (the last three days) to topdog him. When Trax is eating, Barn might suddenly jump on him and start fighting. When Trax is sleeping at the foot of my computer table (Barn's favourite place nowadays)- Barn will rush at him. I have grabbed Barn and turned him tummy up before Trax in all those situations.

Ok, I'm back from being out of town for a week so I'm catching up. I don't know who else has commented or what they've said, so I'm just going to give you my 2 cents worth as I go.

What you are feeding Trax has nothing to do with why another dog will start a fight.

I think Barn2 (3 years old) is trying to take over from Trax as alpha of the canine pack and I am not letting him do that.

Trax is now 13 years old. I suspect he is getting a bit blind. He seems to hear quite well though.

Ah, there's the problem. It's the age. Ok, it's up to you to protect Trax. He can no longer do it and Barn who is an alpha wanna be knows that. You cannot make Barn accept that Trax is still the alpha dog. Pack order is determined by the dogs not by the people.

It could be there is something going on with Trax that you don't know. Might be mental, might be physical. Old dogs can go downhill very quickly and often there are problems that are unkown until it's too late to do anything about it.

You might have to keep them seperated just to protect Trax. Or they might be ok when you are around. Until you are sure keep Barn on leash that way you have something to grab if you need to.

He is more placid now (must be the vegetarian food) and certainly weaker than before.

That's age, not the food. My Tango ate vegetarian food from the age of 5 till she died at age 14. The food did not change her disposition or activity level nor did it change her place in the pack. She was the alpha till she died.

13 is old for a dog. Old age brings changes, placid, weakness are not uncommon. It's his age. The average age for a corgi is 12-13 years. So he's an old guy, you need to accept that.

Noticed a movable non-painful flattish lump about 2 inches in diameter on his left side (above the ribcage)tonight.

Could be a fatty tumor. Have your vet look at it.

Questions:
1 Should I continue to reinforce the Trax-as-Topdog hierarchy or should I let Barn2 take over from Trax?

You cannot decide who the top dog is. It's something between the dogs.

2 How would it affect Trax's morale if this happens?

IMO, he will accept it. However, it's quite possible Barn could kill or injure him in the process since this isn't a peaceable takeover.

Peggy

[taflar]

Thanks. I have a very vague recollection that the lump could be something that I noticed some time ago and the vet said it had something to do with fat (Trax is obese). I will certainly ask the vet the next time I see him (he is out of town at present).

Fatty tumors happen on thin dogs too. They're not due to a dog being overwight or obese. And if he's obese then he needs to loose some weight. At his age that weight is going to be very hard on his heart and kidneys, just as it would be with a human. And the weight alone will affect his activity level. That could be his biggest problem and losing weight could lengthen his life.

Do you ever get a younger dog taking over from an older dog as topdog? Whats the effect on the older dog? I dont want Trax to be crushed by this.

Trax will not be crushed. Dogs tend to accept what life hands them and make the best of it. However, fighting is unaccptable. A true alpha does not "take over" by fighting. Barn is an alpha wannabe and is seeing an opportunity to throw his weight around. It is up to you to protect Trax from his attacks. It's ok for Barn to take over as top dog but not ok for him to do it by fighting.

I did notice at Trax avoided eye contact with Barn2 on a few occasions after or during a fight. I am wondering if I am postponing the inevitable (ie Barn becomes topdog)?

A dog with lower rank will not hold the gaze of a dog of a higher rank. Looking away or avoiding eye contact is a submissive gesture.

1 He is the one who gets to go out more often nowadays (it is hard to control two corgis. Trax tires easily and walks very slowly. Barn runs ahead).

I've not seen that be a problem. I have dogs that go out more often than others.

2 Barn sleeps on my bed.

That indicates to Barn that he is equal to you in status. Since he's starting fights I'd not let him sleep with you.

Trax has decided he didnt want to climb the doggy steps up to my bed. Trax has been sleeping on the cool stairs landing or in my father's airconditioned room (Trax has one of his three beds there. Yup, he has three beds in the house).

Being old and overweight will be a big factor here. Might be too hard to climb those steps now. And could be the cool landing feels better. Extra weight will make a dog warm.

3 Barn gets carried.

Why?

Trax -less so because he is too heavy (20kg), he snaps at me when I try to carry him...and Barn2 will try to bite his backside when I lift him up...!

Again, he needs to lose some of that weight!

4. When we watch TV, Barn now jumps on to the sofa (only the last 2 days) to sit with us. Trax sleeps under the table. Tonight, I carried Trax up to sit with me. This was after Barn tried to topdog him twice and got put in his place by me. Barn was not too happy.

They can learn that they get time with you when you say so.

5. When I feed the dogs, I feed Trax first. Since my dad gets up early and he feeds the dogs, he will feed Barn first (Barn eats normal food) and then he will feed Trax (freshly cut papaya or vegetarian kibble) No amount of nagging will get my dad to reverse the order.

I don't see that as a problem either. I've always fed my dogs as it's convient for me. And they eat before our dinner is ready, again because that's convient for me. However, my corgis eat in their crates.

Peggy

[taflar]

I push Barn down, flip him to his side and lets Trax growl at him. Both relax. I release Barn. That was Part I.

Don't just release him. Give him a 10-15 min. time out in a crate or in a room behind a closed door.

I would not leave them alone together. Ever. Nor would I leave them where they could get to each other at night.

Peggy

[taflar]

Trax is neutered. Barn isnt.

Neuter Barn asap! However, do not expect it to be a miracle cure. It should help though.

Is there any reason not to neuter him other than it not changing Trax.

And for others, neutering does not change a dogs personality or temperment. Neutering will remove the testosterone and testosterone does increase aggressiveness. So sometimes it will help with a fighting problem.

Peggy

[taflar]

Thanks. This is interesting.
Do they not work in a hierarchy- ie Number 1-the human and then Number 2 and Number 3 etc? Or do they only need a Number 1 and then dont bother about the sub ranking?

The way it works is:
Think of a company, the alpha is the president

The alpha wannabe's are the junior members fighting for a higher position

The omega dogs are the janators.

The alpha dog does not need to fight to be an alpha. An alpha dog is not a fighter, he/she is a peacemaker. The pack is peaceful with the alpha around and they respect that position.

It's the alpha wannabe's who are the fighters.

The omega dogs accept their position and don't fight for higher rank.

I will post "What Is an Alpha Dog" in a sperate thread so it will be more findable for future refrence.

Peggy

[taflar]

I guess I had seen too many people who enjoy too much- the one-upmanship with dogs in the name of 'obedience training' and their dogs are mere extensions of their will.....sometimes a quivering mess.

A dog can be obedient without being a quivering mass. And sometimes the quivering in a dog is anticipation or excitement.

Been to dog obedience classes where hyper aggressive dogs are 'hung' with choke chains to make them comply.

If a dog is aggressive and about to bite you, better he is hung for a few seconds than you getting bit. Not something I do very often but I have a time or two. And yes, the dog was about to bite me. And yes, it was a corgi. (Cardi as a matter of fact.) And yes, he was mine.

Peggy

[Artos]

Much thanks re suggestions about relationship between Trax and Barn2. Will observe and see what happens between them. So its ok for Barn to take over as long as he doesnt do it violently?

It helps to know that Trax wont be crushed by it. That was my major worry. Thanks for addressing this very crucial issue.

The two boys are usually very pally: Trax was Barn's mentor and 'elder brother' . Barn's the 'kid brother'. They groom each other and they play fight often- once a day at least. Each of them takes turn flipping over to their side, exposing their tummies to the other....

I dont think Barn is going to do violence to Trax. Even when the growling took place, it seemed more like noise than actual damage....I jumped in to separate them not because I fear anyone getting hurt but because I didnt want Barn's winning to crush Trax's spirit.

Theres some indication that Trax might want to let Barn take the lead. He seemed very tired.(until he hears his squeaky toy and he charges at it like a young dog). Yes, he does need to lose weight. I am struggling with the change in diet and am not sure how much is too much to feed him per day. Up to yesterday it was a combination of 2 carrots, 2 potatoes, 2 square slabs of tofu, 2 apples (or 2 slices of pumpkin), 6 fistfuls of Addiction Zen Vegetarian. The ingredients were in the vet's orders but not the amount. Is that too much? Am cutting down on potatoes now.

[taflar]

So its ok for Barn to take over as long as he doesnt do it violently?

Yes.

The two boys are usually very pally: Trax was Barn's mentor and 'elder brother' . Barn's the 'kid brother'. They groom each other and they play fight often- once a day at least. Each of them takes turn flipping over to their side, exposing their tummies to the other....

Be careful as playfighting can turn into real fighting very easily. Especially when one is starting to do that anyway.

I dont think Barn is going to do violence to Trax.

Are they both corgis? If so, then yes it is very possible. I've seen it. If Barn thinks that Trax is getting weaker he might just attack him and really mean to do him harm.

I am struggling with the change in diet and am not sure how much is too much to feed him per day. Up to yesterday it was a combination of 2 carrots, 2 potatoes, 2 square slabs of tofu, 2 apples (or 2 slices of pumpkin), 6 fistfuls of Addiction Zen Vegetarian. The ingredients were in the vet's orders but not the amount. Is that too much? Am cutting down on potatoes now.

If Trax is fat then yes it's too much. I'd cut it in half until he's at his ideal weight then you can increase it just a bit if you need to.

Is there a reson you don't just feed dog food? That seems like a lot of vegtables and fruit for a dog. IMO, the main ingredient in a dogs diet should be meat. They are mainly carnivores.

Peggy

[Artos]

see next post. Double posting.

[Artos]

Yup. Both are corgis. Trax is the one in my profile. Red white. Barn is the one on my avatar. A Tri.

I have noticed that when they playfight, they never get into the mood of a real fight. The real fight begins when Barn goes to Trax who is either getting my full attention or having some food/prime seating position...and Barn starts to growl.

Re vegetarian food for Trax- will cut down. Vet ordered it to deal with Trax's skin problems. It has improved somewhat since the change in diet....

[Artos]

New development:
I noticed that Trax is giving way to Barnabas.
When Barn is looking, Trax does not dare to eat his food.
He avoids eye contact.

KEY QUESTION:
If he has given Barn the upper hand, should I treat Barn as a higher ranking dog now?

Noticed that the time when Barn attacks him is because when I give Trax the topdog treatment- eg give him food first or a special seat ....and Barn starts growling. Otherwise, they get along.

[taflar]

New development:
I noticed that Trax is giving way to Barnabas.
When Barn is looking, Trax does not dare to eat his food.
He avoids eye contact.

Feed them in seperate places, different rooms even. I would not let any dog be intiminated while eating. Trax should be able to eat without worrying about Barn.

KEY QUESTION:
If he has given Barn the upper hand, should I treat Barn as a higher ranking dog now?

I don't think it matters, they will work out their ranking no matter what you do. It's between them. It's not a human thing.

Noticed that the time when Barn attacks him is because when I give Trax the topdog treatment- eg give him food first or a special seat ....and Barn starts growling. Otherwise, they get along.

Personally, I'd treat them equal, give each their own special time, etc.

Peggy

[CorgiMum]

I would not let any dog be intiminated while eating. Trax should be able to eat without worrying about Barn.


Yes, I most definitely agree.

[Artos]

Thanks. For main meals, I lock Barn outside and feed him there. Trax is fed inside the house. But when they get treats- thats when the trouble starts- Barn wants Trax's. When I give Trax quality time- that's when Barn gets upset. Will separate them for these too....Thanks.