Agility Advice Please.

[CorgiMum]

I have finally decided on an agility group/facility to take Danny too in the New Year. But I'm not sure what our starting point in lessons should be. The instructors will have suggestions, but I wanted to run the choices by my C2bC Agility Friends first. Laurie, Amanda, anyone else competing?

The Foundation class, the one I feel that we maybe should be in given the choices listed, is not available in the evenings, and we can't attend weekday daytime classes. Since Danny has had 2 series of classes a year ago, with 2 different instructors, plus at home we do the jumps, (& in Ob class), the tunnel, & chute. No A frame, but an informal 'walk'. But he also has a fair amount of obedience under his belt.

So my thought is that we should maybe be in Starters/Advanced? Heavy on the Starters, after a Private or Semi Private so that the instructor & I can see where Danny is? And me.:WINK:

Any & and all advice is welcome. :SMILE:

I want to start him off on the right paw as I do intent to enter him in competitions. And as Laurie can attest to, Dan the Man is VERY interested in Agility!+YES+

http://q-ballagility.ca/

[CorgiMum]

Bump.:SMILE:

[CorgiMum]

We are going down to Cloverdale to watch the AAC trials this afternoon. Karen, a trainer friend of ours is running her Sheltie for the very first time in this event. Although I doubt if Ember is as fast as Bella.:SMILE:

The dogs will be coming in with us of course, & here's hoping that Dan the Man controls his enthusiasm for the sport. :TWITCHY:

http://bc.canuckdogs.com/agility.htm

[Bobbie]

DO you have any descriptions of the classes? Don't start in foundations. I didn't even do that with Jack.

[CorgiMum]

Bobbie, yes, I have the class descriptions from the link to Q-Ball Agility in my first post of this thread, under LESSONS:

http://q-ballagility.ca/Classes.htm


The two classes that Danny & I have taken to date are: 1.) Puppy Agility Foundation 2.) Foundation Agility.

I agree, I don't think that we need to start there.

[CorgiMum]

I also just noticed under the AAC (Agility Assoc. of Canada) rules that

"A handicapped dog shall be allowed to participate".

http://www.aac.ca/en/Rules/pdf/AAC_OfficalRuleBookV3-secure.pdf

[Kassie]

No advice, Barbara, but have a blast! I'm sure danny, with his focus and enthusiasm, will do great! Aine is jealous!:SMILE:

[CorgiMum]

Kassie, Although I know he would love to participate, he will only be a spectator today. Hope he does well at that.:WINK:

[Kassie]

Kassie, Although I know he would love to participate, he will only be a spectator today. Hope he does well at that.:WINK:

Right...I got that...I meant when he starts his classes. I also hope he can keep his cool today!!:WINK:

[CorgiMum]

Thanks, I hope that he can too!:LAUGH:

I'll let you know how he behaved today.:WINK:

We are doing a CKC Novice Ob run-through mock trial for the last class of the series tonight. Hope that goes well too.

[Bobbie]

It's hard to tell from the description what the starters class is like but that's where I'd go.

[CorgiMum]

Thanks Bobbie, that's my thought too. Starters/Advanced. I'm sure that as with our other types of classes all the dogs do not have to be at exactly the same place in their experience.

[Bobbie]

It's also good to have a class geared towards competition so that you start to become familiar with rules and lingo. With Janine, I took an intro class, same with Merlin (a better intro class) but with Jack I taught him a few things at home and we jumped into the intermediate class. Jack had no fear so things like slow intros to the teeter were not an issue.

I hope your class teaches weaves. I have yet to go to a class that does a good job of teaching weaves- every instructor has an idea how but never spends enough time on it and unless the how is something I can do at home I just end up teaching them at home (with gates from Xpens and a clicker, with Jack.) And I never get the really fast weaves though I was very impressed with Jack remembering how to do them yesterday.

[CorgiMum]

It's also good to have a class geared towards competition so that you start to become familiar with rules and lingo.
I've been reading the AAC Rules.:EEK:


Jack had no fear so things like slow intros to the teeter were not an issue.
Danny is brave also, but has not ever tried a teeter, that's the only one that I'm even remotely concerned about.

I hope your class teaches weaves. I have yet to go to a class that does a good job of teaching weaves- every instructor has an idea how but never spends enough time on it and unless the how is something I can do at home I just end up teaching them at home (with gates from Xpens and a clicker, with Jack.) And I never get the really fast weaves though I was very impressed with Jack remembering how to do them yesterday.
Although I have a set of weaves at home, I have't let him do them. Same reason, there are so may ways to teach it, and as we know un-teaching a wrong can be very hard. Although there was that one night in Ob class where I let him try. He took 2 turns, first one ok, second one missed a pole, so I stopped there, even though in normal training we stop at a 'good one'

[Bobbie]

You can also start going to watch trials if you get the chance.

Jack loves the teeter. Merlin never minded it. Janine will only do it at home, rarely on a strange teeter in competition. She had the worst intro to it but she was my first dog to do agility so I had no idea that it was being introduced too fast. I started the other two on it myself at home. What I'd do if I had the chance is have my dog watch another, skilled and unafraid, dog do the teeter and get treats over and over, before starting him. If you do it first in class and one dog panics, the others all see it and learn it is scary.

[CorgiMum]

Excellent point in your last sentence Bobbie, thanks!

I have one of those round exercise boards could try. I've also read about putting a ball in a sock, staple the sock onto a piece of plywood and get the dog used to the movement. What are your thoughts about that?

[Bobbie]

I started with a balance board with Jack (basically like your sock under the plywood.) I think it is a good idea. Danny probably won't mind it but if he does you can start treating him for making it move. Teddy accidentally tried our wheelchair teeter once (thinking it was a ramp) and totally flipped out but it never bothered Jack a bit to have things move under his feet. Merlin either (and they are the two that like the boat, too.)

Jack even left the ring to do the teeter in Level 1 CPE where the teeter isn't used- he saw one, he ran over and took it, then came back and finished the course.

[2CrazyCorgis]

Barbara,
I think you and Danny should go to the Starters class. Have you had an opportunity to see any of their classes and see how they are teaching? I really liked the way Rudy's foundation teacher taught the teeter. It is his favorite obstacle, whereas Bella still hesitates on it a bit.

I don't really think it's possible for a dog to really learn weaves in a class. Bella has good weaves now, but we struggled for a while because she learned by basically luring her through the poles. This doesn't teach them to really drive through with any speed. Luckily she has enough drive that she picked up the speed on her own. I started Rudy with the Power Paws method (channelled weaves) and I liked it, but I don't have weaves at home that I can channel. So we have started the Susan Garrett 2x2 method and he is up to the point of doing 4 poles in line.

I wish you guys could come down for the Corgi Show n Go on Dec 5th. We are doing fun runs of agility, obedience and rally as well as a tracking demo. Great experience for young dogs!

[Bobbie]

I sure wish you were doing that a little later in December, Laurie!

[MVons]

Jack even left the ring to do the teeter in Level 1 CPE where the teeter isn't used- he saw one, he ran over and took it, then came back and finished the course.What a riot. My son asked if he lost points for his teeter addition.

[Bobbie]

It might have been an off-course, I don't remember. I don't think he Q'd, but I also don't remember that.

[sutulu]

Hi Barbara:

I didn't see any class descriptions on the link you posted.

One of the things I found when searching for appropriate classes was they focused on mastering the equipment "at full height" . Some broke it down by contacts, jumps and sequencing, etc.

Back in NY we had a special 8 week class just for weaves. Tucker mastered weaves using the "channel" method. Lulu's class is using chanels too and she seems to be doing well with it so far.

I've never used weave wires but have been curious about them.....

We were given a workbook and told to practice every day at least 2 times a day for short periods. Always ending on a positive - even if it meant opening the "channels" way up.

One of my goals while on vacation this week is to get her weave poles out and get her working.

[manymuddypaws]

I think you should talk to them and see how their classes are run. If you were taking my classes you would start in the Teambuilding- which I think (from their description) would be their Foundation class.

Even though he knows a tunnel, and jumps etc. the foundation class would teach him targeting for contacts, and handling on the flat. It is much easier to learn how to do a front cross without equipment! :)

from the description of the starters class I think it is way above his head- he doesn't know all the equipment yet, and you don't have the handling skills to piece things together yet.

Anyway, it is hard to say for sure because I don't know for sure what methods they use and how they break their classes down. Teaching the equipment properly is not as easy as it seems, and things need to be broken down before ever doing sequencing.

just some thoughts.

[Bobbie]

I also just noticed under the AAC (Agility Assoc. of Canada) rules that

"A handicapped dog shall be allowed to participate".

http://www.aac.ca/en/Rules/pdf/AAC_OfficalRuleBookV3-secure.pdf

I think they mean a deaf or one-eyed or 3-legged dog as they don't have allowances for handicapped dogs (which would be tough in agility- except in NADAC where Hoopers could be done by a dog in a cart if they allowed it.) They also say the dog can't have an injury interfering with his performance.

[Bobbie]

Barbara mentions having taken two classes a year ago- what did you cover in those two classes? I was under the impression they were like the Foundation class.

[sutulu]

As one who has taken Lulu backwards.... it is the right thing for us.

She was just learning teeter - she can do all the rest of the contacts perfectly and we have competed very well in CPE level 1 (no teeter or weaves). But the way it is taught here in PA means going back to Skills and Fundamentals.

She is bored out of her mind most of the class - not a good thing for Lulu. But I am finding ways to keep her entertained while we go back.

[2CrazyCorgis]

Barbara,
Maybe you should talk to the instructor and observe a class or two to see where you think you and Danny would best fit in.

[CorgiMum]

Thanks for all of your great advice!

I do think that the way to start him off would be a private so that the instructor can evaluate Danny. Well, agility wise that is.:TWITCHY:

Now that the weather has gotten so nasty we'll wait until the new year before we embark on out agility adventure.

In the meantime I have ordered a CKC agility rule book, but am waiting until Jan to enroll in AAC as the memberships expire by the calendar year. That will get me those rules and I'll also get Danny his number that he will need to enter AAC trails.

There are many more AAC competitions here in the Lower Mainland than there are CKC.

I was glad that we went to watch the AAC last weekend. I was very surprised to learn that one fault and it's a NQ. Not a points reduction scoring, just a big 'ol NQ.+SAD+ So, at $14. a crack, Danny & I will be entering and considering them as practice runs.

The CKC rules are apparently much different.

Amanda, I'm hoping that you can give me some tips on the differences between them as far as equipment etc?

And then there are the ones south of the border that we could try as well.

Laurie, or Bobbie, I'm hoping that you will be able to tell me how to sort out those organizations so that we can participate in WA competitions.

If you remember, we had said that Dan the Man was silent when you and Bella were running the course, and was completely attentive to your commands Laurie. I know that she could teach him a thing or three.:WINK:

[Bobbie]

Barbara, I'd recommend looking at CPE as they have Level 1 without teeter or weaves so that allows you to start competing quickly, they are also very friendly to new people. I think most of the Washington trials are down at Argus Ranch but they have camping on the grounds so it is very convenient- and a lovely place to visit. Nadac is good, too, as they have lots of different options like Jumpers only, and a Tunnelers course, so you can also start competing quickly. Plus both allow low jump heights.

[manymuddypaws]

AAC equipment isn't all that different from CKC.

Heights are different. AAC is 6, 10, 16, 22, 26. I think CKC is 8, 12, 16, 20, 24

So Danny most likely would jump 12 in CKC, and 10 in AAC.

CKC has a panel jump (just like an Obedience jump) but really everything else is the same.

The courses are very different- CKC is much easier. No weaves in Novice Standard, and the course is short- 13-14 obstacles. AAC is more technical, and often has 12 poles in Starters. Also there is usually one handling challenge (usually a front or rear cross out of a tunnel).

in CKC you are allowed to have faults (15, but not a knocked bar) and still qualify. In AAC you have to run clean to Q. Makes things more of a challenge. :o)

NADAC is in Canada and the US. I bet there are some NADAC trials around your area, you'd just have to ask around. NADAC is sometimes a good place to start- their tunnelers courses are just tunnels- so it is pretty fun for the dog!

[2CrazyCorgis]

Barbara,
I think it's a great idea to start with a private lesson to get an idea of what class would be best for you and Danny.
There are NADAC trials in Canada, I know of one club (Scallywags) who does trials over on Vancouver Island. Lots of folks from here make the trip over and I've heard they put on especially fun trials. There is also one NADAC trial a year in Lynden which would be much closer for you. No special requirements for Canadians competing in Nadac, you just have to get a registration number via the Nadac website and you are good to go. Same with CPE I believe.
AKC is harder (in my opinion) than the NADAC regular courses. I didn't start Bella in AKC trial until this past year, once we were competing in Open in Nadac. As you've already found out, in order for Danny to compete in AKC events he has to fill out that form that sounds like you are exporting him to the US!! :SHOCKED:

I do have to warn you though - agility is VERY addicting for both dog and handler.
Gotta go check the turkey!

[CorgiMum]

Bobbie, Amanda & Laurie, thank you all very much! +THANKS1+

You have certainly given me the info I needed to sort out all of the different types of competition organizations. I will be rereading your posts more than once that's for sure.:ER:

I really would like to start him out with mostly the fun stuff as far as competing. Jumpers & Tunnelers would be a hoot for him, and I'm thinking easy for me?

I've sorted out our 2010 dates for Obedience and Rally, and now I can work towards some Agility competitions too:SMILE:.

[CorgiMum]

As you've already found out, in order for Danny to compete in AKC events he has to fill out that form that sounds like you are exporting him to the US!! :SHOCKED:
Yes, and everytime I reach for those papers I think of you, offering to let him immigrate to your house! :NAH::LAUGH:


I do have to warn you though - agility is VERY addicting for both dog and handler.

I think that it will be, as is our Ob & Rally too! (Shhh, I'm not going to think about herding lessons for at least another year.)

I am planning though on getting Danny certified in the spring/summer as a Therapy dog as Dylan is with the Saint John Ambulance.

And, when we saw you and Bella run in Lynden, it was NADAC right? So they have Tunnelers and Jumpers too?

[CorgiMum]

AAC equipment isn't all that different from CKC.

Heights are different. AAC is 6, 10, 16, 22, 26. I think CKC is 8, 12, 16, 20, 24

So Danny most likely would jump 12 in CKC, and 10 in AAC.

CKC has a panel jump (just like an Obedience jump) but really everything else is the same.

I think that 12 is too high for Danny. His CKC jump height is 3/4, he is 12 (if I measured right) so only jumps 9". The CKC Ob broad jump doubles, he does 18". Neither is a problem for him. I find it strange that CKC rules are different for 2 sports for the same dog.:ER:

The courses are very different- CKC is much easier. No weaves in Novice Standard, and the course is short- 13-14 obstacles. AAC is more technical, and often has 12 poles in Starters. Also there is usually one handling challenge (usually a front or rear cross out of a tunnel). in CKC you are allowed to have faults (15, but not a knocked bar) and still qualify. In AAC you have to run clean to Q. Makes things more of a challenge. :o) Yes, I saw how difficult the the AAC course was when our Rally trainer ran it. And didn't Q. Mind you, it was their first time ever.

NADAC is in Canada and the US. I bet there are some NADAC trials around your area, you'd just have to ask around. NADAC is sometimes a good place to start- their tunnelers courses are just tunnels- so it is pretty fun for the dog!

Looks like CKC & NADAC are the way to go. And I'd love to get down to Argus Ranch and try CPE with him too. Maybe during the camping season.

Off to find out the Agility trial calendar for 2010.:SMILE: This way I'll know what we are working towards, which will help us in deciding which training to start with.

Do I over think Danny's training plans do you think?:ER:

[2CrazyCorgis]

One nice thing about NADAC, Corgis have a breed exemption, so they can always jump 8" and don't have to be measured. Bella is 11" at the withers so she can jump 8" in AKC also. Rudy is taller, but I don't want him to jump 12" so I will enter him in the Preferred class in AKC where he can jump in a lower jump height. Not that he isn't capable of jumping 12", he is just heavier and longer, and I would feel better if he was jumping a lower height.

Yes, the trial you came to watch in Lynden was a NADAC trial. They offer seven different classes you can enter with various challenges. There are pros and cons to every venue, and you have to figure out what works best for you and your dog. I choose to focus mostly on AKC for titles, NADAC occasionaly for fun and distance training. I'd love to do CPE and try some USDAA, but my time and money are limited "NO:":

We are doing one day of a NADAC trial this weekend! It's a Thanksgiving tradition...

[manymuddypaws]

in AAC and CKC you can also move to a category that enables you to jump lower- Wicca jumps 6" in AAC, and 8" in CKC.

[CorgiMum]

Since I have to wait a bit before Danny & I can start classes at Q Call Agility I'm wondering if there is a book/manual that you gals would recommend that I be reading? I'm spending time reading on Clean Run.

Also in the meantime I've gone through various Agility organization sites and looked up the possibilities for us to enter competitions within a reasonable distance from home.

CKC For us there is only one listed for for the upcoming year.
CPE One date that works for us, but is a 5 hr drive so no.
AAC Possibly four dates in our area. (the hardest scoring trial)

NADAC Four dates work for us, maybe even a 5th.

Looks like if all goes well we will be RVing down to Woodenville in May, and Argus Ranch in Apr, June Sep, and maybe Aug is Gary can do a holiday switch.

I talked to a Rally classmate yesterday about AAC and she said that it took her 5 years to get a Masters on her dog in AAC.

[Bobbie]

Everyone's dates won't be up yet for next summer. There is a CPE trial on the Argus calendar for April, for example, and another for May.

http://argusranch.com/trialsandeventsandseminars/eventsandseminarscalendar.html

My guess at the moment is that Jack is out of agility for the time being, probably for good, if he has to be on a higher dose of phenobarbital.

[2CrazyCorgis]

Bobbie,
I hope that Jack (and you) get to return to agility in the future. I know how much you both enjoy it.
Barbara,
There is a book called All About Agility that Clean Run sells (you may find it on Dogwise too) that goes over the different organizations and entering trials, etc. I haven't read it but heard about it from someone else. It may be more geared toward US organizations but probably still has some good info. I think the best way to learn about trialing is to go to trials and talk to people. Most folks love to talk about agility and their dogs (just don't catch them right before a run :BIGGRIN"). Volunteering at trials is also a good way to meet people and learn lots.
I probably wouldn't plan on Danny being ready to enter a trial by the spring. Maybe he will be, every dog is different and he has a good foundation. You'll get a feel for how he will progress once you start your classes.
By the way I added 3 of Bella's runs from yesterday to our youtube site. She Q'd 3 out of the 4 runs she did. Ironically the one she missed was her favorite - tunnellers! She jumped her start line (she is such a bugger when she just sees tunnels on the course) and then just made up her own course like I wasn't even there! That is NOT one of the videos you will be seeing! :TONGUE:

[CorgiMum]

I see 2 books listed by that tile and author.:ER:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/search?keywords=all%20about%20agility&pageSize=10

[2CrazyCorgis]

That's weird. The one they have on Clean Run and Amazon is the one with the tunnel on the front. I didn't realize it was published 10 years ago, some of the rules, etc may be pretty outdated if it hasn't been updated.

[CorgiMum]

I've been in touch with the Agility facility and have set up a Private lesson to have Danny & I evaluated Sun Dec 13th.

http://www.q-ballagility.ca/#nogo31

I've also managed to get a few agility books from our local library.

"Agility Training for You & Your Dog" Ali Canova & Joe Canova with Diane Goodspeed

"Introduction to Dog Agilty" Margaret H. Bonham

"Agility" Jacqueline O'Neil - The one that was recommended, thanks Laurie.

So, now that I have set up an appt, collected these books, and my CKC Agility Rules book has arrived, it was suggested to me by our current trainer that I not do agility with Danny until he has some Ob tiles behind him.

Now I very much believe in cross training, and I was looking at this new sport as more of a fun adventure for Danny & I, not getting competitive about it until further down the road. I may not have made that clear to her.
Irregardless, it won't hurt to have the Private class and have an evaluation done as to what level of classes Danny & I would be best suited to.

I'd love to hear your experienced opinions on topic of waiting to start agility as opposed to getting into some group classes, or Private/Semi classes in the New Year.

Thanks.

[Bobbie]

Well, my opinion is, why would anyone want to do formal obedience when they can do agility instead? Rally is okay, I enjoy it with Candy who can't do agility, but agility is a LOT more fun.

However, it does not hurt one bit to mix them, lots of people do, and dogs that are too thoroughly obedience-trained sometimes have issues about working on the right.

[CorgiMum]

Well, my opinion is, why would anyone want to do formal obedience when they can do agility instead? Rally is okay, I enjoy it with Candy who can't do agility, but agility is a LOT more fun.

I like Ob Bobbie.:BIGGRIN" Obedience is less work for the handler but more work for the dog, IMO. And once we get past Novice, it's jumping, fetching, scent articles etc, so more fun. And I do believe that it is either like it or hate it sport.

However, it does not hurt one bit to mix them, lots of people do, and dogs that are too thoroughly obedience-trained sometimes have issues about working on the right.
Yes, I've heard that, and that's why Danny has been working/playing freestyle moves, & some agility equipment since he came home to us. Dylan is a true corgi in his herding style, a drover. Danny, I can 'send him out', so that is a big plus I think for agility, and will be in herding as well.

[2CrazyCorgis]

I have never bought the 'train one thing at a time' philosophy. Most successful agility dogs don't have any obedience titles, although of course they have had some obedience training. Is she thinking that the agility training may be detrimental to his obedience career, or vice versa?
Danny is plenty mature enough to tell the difference between being in an obedience ring and an agility ring. I would move ahead as planned if that is what you want to do.

As far as obedience dogs not wanting to work away from you or be on the right, I think it depends on your method of training. I know you train Danny with a positive approach so I doubt it will be a problem for you. He may be a little confused by it at first, but he'll learn the difference. I think the dogs who have been trained with harsh corrections are much more reluctant to do something different. They probably think they're being tricked...

[manymuddypaws]

that's a very old fashioned style of thinking. I know lots of dogs (mine included) who are very competitive in agility and obedience at the same time. you'll have no problems at all.

[CorgiMum]

that's a very old fashioned style of thinking. I know lots of dogs (mine included) who are very competitive in agility and obedience at the same time. you'll have no problems at all.

Thanks Amanda, I *think* that she is looking at it from a competitor's view. A very, very competitive and a very, very good Ob trainer. And she is first and foremost an Ob person, so anything that takes time(?) away from that I'm wondering may be her idea.

Anyhow, I want to start agility now with Danny, while he is young & strong because I know that he enjoys it, and I think that I will too.

Strange, I am really not a competitive person at all. And here I am in the middle of some very competitive dogs sports again.

But then, when we go into a ring, weather it be freestyle, Ob, rally it's just me and my dog. Everything else (the competition results) are secondary. Our new trainer doesn't know me well enough yet to know that I'm in it all firstly for the fun that my dogs and I can have together. I want us to do well at all that we do together, but never at the cost of enjoyment.:SMILE:

[CorgiMum]

I have never bought the 'train one thing at a time' philosophy. Most successful agility dogs don't have any obedience titles, although of course they have had some obedience training. Is she thinking that the agility training may be detrimental to his obedience career, or vice versa?
Probably as I mentioned in my post above to Amanda, more a training time thing, and when she trials, she makes sure that she does very well. The other weekend in the Ob ring, 199.5 twice and 199 once, all out of 200! She and her Sheltie were awesome to watch, almost like a dance, so fluid.

Danny is plenty mature enough to tell the difference between being in an obedience ring and an agility ring. I would move ahead as planned if that is what you want to do.
Thanks for that, I agree, and as you said Danny (& I too :WINK:) are both mature enough to tell the difference between the sports.

As far as obedience dogs not wanting to work away from you or be on the right, I think it depends on your method of training. I know you train Danny with a positive approach so I doubt it will be a problem for you. He may be a little confused by it at first, but he'll learn the difference. I think the dogs who have been trained with harsh corrections are much more reluctant to do something different. They probably think they're being tricked...
I think you are right about that too. Danny is pretty game to try anything new, that makes training so much more fun. And the fact that last week I bought him an all leather, water buffalo, tug toy just for breaks when we are training. Plus, the trainer showed me how to play tug, which is now a bounce, so that he isn't pulling my arm off!